See the entire conversation

If you’ve wondered why Microsoft made the VS Code editor, note how many lines go from “First” to “OSX” [sic] to “Visual Studio Code”. Macs OWNED web development for a decade. But when Apple lost years alienating and neglecting pros, Microsoft had their foot on the gas.
Super stoked with how this turned out
52 replies and sub-replies as of May 08 2019

And step 0 for winning back web developers is fixing the MacBook Pro, the computer that got us all there in the first place.
I dread buying a new Mac...!
Hopefully this summer.. I’ve been waiting for about 2 years now..
Microsoft is integrating Linux in to Windows and Apple don't seem to care about cross-platform dev like that did in the early OS X days. Plus MBP keyboards. I think in a few year the only devs using Macs with be for iOS dev and the @siracusa type, long term Apple loyalists.
I am assuming iOS development still requires macOS and doesn't move to iOS its self.
Oh you’ll still need a Mac... to debug your website on iOS Safari.
I think that many at Apple would prefer you use iPad. In general I believe that is users have a choice between an iPad or Mac,any at Apple would want people to get the iPad. Apple's future is iOS devices … and services 😀
I went and bought a 2015 MacBook pro yesterday after my keyboard got stuck for the second time on my 2017. It's beyond just a failure of design at this point. It's a total failure of understanding what the hell a pro needs in laptop.
Apple is a mobile and content company now. I see zero reason and impulse for them to care about the Macs.
Honestly this has to be job 1 for WWDC. Nothing else will matter if the company remains incapable of shipping a working laptop keyboard.
Thr is nothing wrong. vrything is fin.
Windows laptops have gotten really good. The mid-range Dell Latitude my employer gave me is great for light python coding and spatial analytics work.
This occurred to me the other day: we might go straight from bad keyboards and Intel chips to good keyboard and ARM chips. Holding a 2015 MBP until 2020 might turn out to be a good bet.
Well, at least we get dark mode.
The Macbook Pro is so crucial. It's also apple's best selling laptop. So, yeah. This keyboard thing and the subsequent damage to its reputation for 3 years running *really* stings.
Would also be nice to have something like VS Code for iOS.
Hey @tim_cook, @pschiller, one of your biggest fans and devs @marcoarment is using a four-year old laptop because your current hardware sucks. I'm using a five-year old laptop for same reason. If you don't have an update, I suggest a Mac Pro-style mea-culpa immediately.
Agreed. I love MacOS and apps that run on it and I use them to develop Windows Server solutions using VMs. I hate the keyboard on my 2017. If they don't fix it, my next unit won't be an MBP. Many PC laptops blow just as hard though. Depressing.
Not happening soon. Apple is no longer into computer hardware and software. They are a self proclaimed appliance company now. They do just enough hardware and software to sell their appliances and services around it. We are not getting too notch gear from them anymore.
I believe that the mass market adopting the MBP as a commodity machine have hurt a lot Apple's usage metrics, so they optimized their new design (the 2016) for the mass market and not the "Pros", because that's what the numbers told them My take on it:
What do "Pro" users want?
My current machine is a 2013 i7 Macbook Air. It doesn't have the Pro label, however, It has two USB 3.0 ports, an SD slot and a Thunderbolt port. 12 hours of battery life. One of the best non-retina screens around. Judging by this week's snarky com
And Step 1 to not turn macOS slowly into iOS by Gatekeeping (pun semi-intended) any and all features 3rd parties may come up with. Writing really good web development tools for iOS is flat-out impossible due to sandboxing.
I don’t think anything Apple did or does has anything to do with folks using VSCode 🤷🏽‍♂️
Can you explain what marco is pointing to? There’s hardly anyone using VS code is how I read it? What’s he alluding to? How does Apple alienating pros fits in the narrative?
Well lots are using it, anecdotally and from that diagram And I’m as confused as you about the narrative. He’s just on a “MacBook Pro is a sucks” loop now I think
Apple laptops have been popular with developers for a long time. I've seen the problems with the new laptops and the growing use of VSCode make developers more open to leaving Apple.
I don’t know how you get “VSCode users are leaving Macs because of keyboards” from a graph showing that VSCode users are also Mac users
I said, “I’ve seen...” It’s my personal experience. All my coworkers have switched to VSCode and many are considering switching from MacBooks.
Microsoft is so good at providing full stack development as well.
I have 2 mac laptops and a desktop. An ipad and an iPhone. And I'm seriously considering jumping to Windows next year if the WSL2 lives up to the hype because I can't find the hardware from Apple that I really want. #ItIsKillingMe
WSL 2 looks amazing, as does the Windows Terminal. For most Windows laptops sold, if Windows doesn’t suit your needs, you can easily dual boot into any number of Linux distros flavors you wish. You have lots of choice and flexibility with PC hardware. Apple is losing ground.
Don't get me wrong. Still love most of Apple hardware and I think they get dinged for things that are silly. But a desktop should be as powerful as they come (I don't care about thin desktops), and I should be able to get a laptop with a great keyboard. I run apps, not OSes.
VSCode would be great if it wasn’t Electron
VSCode is fast, light, free, and runs on nearly everything with a silicon chip inside it. No one cares what the underlying technology is. It is evidence that Electron itself isn’t the problem if you design your app with care. Plenty of apps do just that. Electron ≠ Slack.
The lede is buried deep in this one. Look at that last set of pins. There are a lot of monsters out there using tabs.
Another take away is the breadth of the lines leaving VS Code. It is an accepted and excellent solution for just about any language in the pack. @Microsoft has made something special with VS Code
And their promotion of remote-friendly tools will widen that gap.
No Xcode as editor, and obvious selection bias (its a MS dev conference). You still have a point though
this was at a microsoft specific conference. so, it’s not really surprising that MS tools are the most popular. i’d be curious to see what happens with the same board at a generic web dev or other programming conference.
Apple never had a code editor like VS Code. It was always third parties doing the work.
Nobody is saying that Apple has a VSCode equivalent. But they messed up the keyboard and some App Store restrictions forcing some pro apps to leave too.
I coded on Sublime+Mac for 10 years before switching to Vscode on Mac and then to Vscode on WSL. Github+Vscode+WSL2 is making me excited.
You’re absolutely right, but Microsoft still mostly ignores the designers … look at subpages @… 🤮
Microsoft Design
Fluent Design System
I don't understand your argument. You're comparing software with hardware? All of MS tools are available for macOS and work really well regardless of which Mac you're using. Current gen MBPs have issues but they don't make up 100% of dev's coding on macOS for web or mobile.
Lol at the "OSX [sic]" bit - it's been called macOS for how many years now?!
And even when it was called Mac OS X, and then just OS X, there was always a space in there.
It's telling that there isn't a "JetBrains IDE" option here, considering that they are the most relevant competition to VS & VSCode. @jetbrains @JetBrainsRider
And regarding MS Surface hardware vs. Apple, the form factor, touch screen + detachable keyboard have many advantages but you've never owned a Surface to see how they are missing TB/USB Type C ports, poor battery life, mediocre touch-pads & a high failure rate after 18 months
Getting a LAMP stack running on my personal mac was what empowered me to jump from design to developer. The quality of hardware drove me to convert fully to . Now it's easier to get that stack up on Windows. Safer for your pocket book and career path to stay there..
I dabble in Code (Windows) for my Linux stuff and it’s really not much of a threat to established IDEs, yet. I’m sure it will get better but right now it’s frustrating to use. The tab UI when you have a lot of files open is rough.
(Possibly sensitive)