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I wish Tailwind enthusiasts weren't so defensive There's really no need to frame it in opposition to CSS the way its inventor always does
74 replies and sub-replies as of Dec 11 2021

Yeah, when you start with the premise that CSS is bad you sort of invite criticism upon yourself, but they see offended by criticism that they themselves dish out.
The only reason I'm saying this is because the dishing out seems to be happening with increasing frequency
I just don't understand why it feels like I should feel bad for just writing the CSS that I need. :| Best practices don't work also seems like an oddly recursive statement for a library that presents itself as a new best practice. *shrug* Oh well.
I have a vision - a world where some folk use Tailwindcss, others use Sass, and between them a rich vein of standard CSS writers. Tools and creators all flourishing together in peace and harmony. Join me friends, we can make it a reality. No more straw-man attention seeking✌️
yeah to me it's tailwinds with css, it's a suplment thats good for certain things and not for others
I agree. I don't understand why many people want to make Tailwind THE ultimate tool that will save you from the CSS hell. They need to really calm down. Why fighting with "vanilla CSS writer"? use your tool and be productive but don't start a useless war.
Hey y’all, where do these arguments happen? The Twitter algorithms doesn’t show me any of it.
You are lucky then...
Lol. Same here. 😅
Well said.
It's like anything - we have to be angry and tribal over all things. It's a personal attack, you know.
Exactly! The outward defensiveness makes it feel like the creators know they are doing something not entirely right. Doesn't pass the smell test.
They really picked Tailwind as the hill they want to die on 😂😂 it’s tiring to watch!
Tailwind gets a lot of hate. Offenses in turn produce defenses. Not that hard to understand...
hate != critic. Tailwind like any other tool will get a lot of critics. I remember the time where jQuery was so popular and everyone was using it like a magic tool but still a lot of people where against it Nowadays, jQuery is less popular and many are getting back to vanilla JS
I didn’t think my point was hard to understand either, but you’ve managed to take a call to simmer down as a personal attack, so…
I have? Interesting...
This is Toxic Positivity right here. As @ChallengesCss already put it well, critique is not hate.… Critique != negativity. Labelling everything that is not supportive as hate is toxic positivity.
Sexism, Racism, Toxic Positivity, and TailwindCSS
You might think that these things don't belong in the same article, but here we are, this week in fro...
Except in a debate, critique is mounting an offense against the other side. In which lies the answer to "why are some tailwind enthusiasts so defensive". PS: I literally see every day posts of "I hate tailwind".
The posts of "I hate CSS" are much more. Let's not forget the never ending memes around "centering in CSS" (something well documented everywhere). Those are not to consider, they are not constructive. It's the frustration of lazy people that don't want to do the effort to learn.
Debate methodology is misplaced in every day discourse. I also don't expect you to have a systemic attitude, just because I part of my studies is systemic epistemology. Debates have opponents, fights and victories. If you relate to critique as offence, the war lives in you.
^ I use windi along with handwritten css and its honestly very comfy
That genuinely sounds awesome! Everyone should use the tools that work for them 👍
Polarization causes engagement. 🤷‍♂️
I don’t want to believe that that’s why he does it, but the evidence is mounting
100%. I don't know why people keep falling for this trap. Tailwind is not an altruistic gift or a selfless act to deliver poor javascript developers from the oh so awful CSS hell. It's a business.
I like Tailwind, and I don't hate CSS
This is the way 💙
I think Tailwind CSS is great. It feels more like a Centralized style.css that I can just share with my friends and forget about it and they can understand and make changes . If they have some doubts they can read the docs and solve it . They may not be as good as me in CSS
Are you trying to suggest that developers aren't good at nuance and maybe everything has pros and cons?
Gonna need you to pick a side here Jack: nobody’s looking for “balance” when it comes to the best way to centre a div 😤
I like Tailwind because it's easy and I get to do more faster and be lazy. I like CSS because I can do ANYTHING with it with enough effort. But the best part is that I can mix and match these two in whatever way I want! :)
Right?! Use what works best for your context! 🙌
I feel like I only see this point from anti-tailwind people 🤷‍♂️
Can you point me to any examples? I’m not asking to be difficult, it’s just that I don’t see a lot of the “anti-tailwind” discourse it’s claimed happens
How many do you want?
I don't like writing 10 classes to style a button, so I decided to not learn Tailwind CSS. I think I'm never touching Tailwind again.
If you’re a CSS expert, tailwind is just decent shorthand you have to re-learn and a relatively loose style system good for prototyping, not zen mode. The idea that you can’t iterate quickly with your own CSS is tailwind marketing.
Everyone is missing the point here. Would you like to see you child learning how to use a calculator to be "more productive" instead of learning the basic of math? People are inviting other to drop learning CSS and jump into using Tailwind "blindly". This is a red flag for me.
Where is the anti-Tailwind in that tweet? can you explain to me.
Considering that classname composition is literally how Tailwind works that sounds like someone offering a valid opinion?
Since @threepointone let you down gently I’m going to throw hands a bit. You are the problem here. Get over yourself and your weird preferences and deluded “there are no haters! Just people who agree with me” bullshit. 🚩🚩🚩
I don’t like changing my mental model, so I decided to not learn the new things that make other developers more productive. If you don’t like Tailwind that’s fine. Publicly talking shit on something you haven’t used tho? 🚩🚩🚩 (Context: I’m an ex-Tailwind hater. Get over it.)
I think you need to relax
- “Your enthusiasts are too defensive and make bad points!” - “We’re not the haters, show me!” - “That’s not hate, that’s a valid opinion!” - “You just need to relax” …lmao
You do seem upset though. Try to recall that all I’m suggesting is that getting upset about people’s choice of CSS framework is unnecessary
yeah I’ve seen shit tons of anti tailwind discourse, lots of it from fairly prominent personalities in the community. I’m not going to qt here, but I’m surprised to hear you say you haven’t seen it. It’s a meme at this point.
I sometimes see people saying it’s not the approach for them, which feels like something people should be able to do
Nope, I’m saying I’ve definitely have seen the phrasing of it being fundamentally opposed to what css is meant and designed for. Many times.
All I can do is repeat that I have not seen this happen
Ollie I’m not making this up. These are the same folks who hounded mine (and others) work on css in js, so much so I abandoned the one popular library I’d built and cherished because of the drama that came with it. Trust me when I say I keep a close eye on these things.
My dear and much beloved friend, I’m not saying you’re making anything up
Its just many don't want to have an abstraction on top of CSS, no matter what it is and more often those are people working on simple stuff in small teams and their voices are the loudest ...
I’ve definitely seen people in the CSS community shitting on Tailwind. On the other hand I’ve had plenty of TW enthusiasts mansplain and belittle me for daring to have a nuanced opinion about it. I respect the tool, but there’s an element of the TW community that feels very toxic
This I agree with and have seen too. Bumped up against some of them myself. Bad apples and barrels etc
Which is an opinion that is OK to have, and that is OK to express. The fact that this is being seen as aggression, and hence triggers defensiveness, is the crux of the issue.
I'm answering to your tweet as it is worded though. There has been abusive language and some aggressive stances on the anti-tailwind side that one cannot condone.
That’s moving goalposts. We started this thread with the assertion that they don’t have/haven’t expressed that opinion. And of course it triggers defensiveness, why wouldn’t it.
I got to bail from this thread. Love y’all, but I promised to move away from this community and I made a mistake by inserting myself here. Peace xoxo use my software it’s very cool
I'm not following up on @oliverturner's point, as I have seen the attitude he is not aware of. That would indeed be a moving goalpost otherwise.
Both sides are at opposing extremes and unwilling to meet in the middle where reality exists, which is not unique to Tailwind vs CSS but rather how the bulk of Twitter debates go.
I'm irrelevant but I'm pro tailwind and agree with Oliver here.
I love Tailwind and like CSS too. I'm always using some custom CSS for general styling and Tailwind CSS for "local" styling. And I don't like this CSS vs Tailwind CSS war 😁
Agreed ! Its like using React and hating JavaScript or Typescript. 🙄
Tailwind compliments css... Bulma and Bootstrap too. Why does need to be a zero sum game? Lol
I see a multiple tweets a day defending CSS from scores of Tailwindcss zealots, but see no zealots. Tailwind is fine - but yeah of course CSS will outlive it. Meanwhile lots of people are finding value in it so…
My point is that they can, and should, co-exist
Sure, but my point is that it feels like you’re contributing to the problem 🤷‍♀️
Ok, but that means you've misunderstood the point? 🤷‍♀️
I don't think I frame it in opposition to CSS? CSS the language is cool with tons of awesome features, I have more expertise in CSS than probably any other programming language at this point.
Tailwind isn’t an attempt to “fix” CSS, it’s just a shortcut for generating the exact same CSS you would otherwise be writing by hand (like I used to) if you believe in the architecture. CSS the language is great, Tailwind is just a way to use it.
CSS Utility Classes and "Separation of Concerns"
Over the last several years, the way I write CSS has transitioned from a "semantic" approach to something more like what people call "functional CSS." In this post I explain how I got to this point and share some of the lessons and insights I've picked up along the way.
Tailwind is not in any way at all an alternative to CSS, it's an alternative CSS architecture. More than anything Tailwind is just a recommendation for what a CSS class should include and how it should be named. It could be a blog post instead of a framework.