Convopage
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Ada Rose 🏳️🌈✊🏾🌍
@Lady_Ada_King
Why would someone add this banner to their website?! Embrace the web it is good. Tumblr web is great.
153 replies and sub-replies as of Apr 10 2017
🔥 Jaime González 🔥
@Vintharas
+1 ^_^
Serge Lachapelle
@slac
reddit does the same :/
Ada Rose 🏳️🌈✊🏾🌍
@Lady_Ada_King
Ugh.
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
There's a funnel problem and Android-blindness. Both loom large in these conversations.
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
Many product managers "know" that native apps have higher engagement. When they didn't with them, lo and behold! It's true.
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
What they miss is that they aren't running a reasonable comparison unless they've also built a PWA.
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
ugg...auto"correct" killing me. Anyhow, when they run native app experiment w/o PWA baseline, they select for *already* most engaged users
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
The set of people who are willing to sit through a native app install, updates, etc. already find value from the service and want more of it
Ada Rose 🏳️🌈✊🏾🌍
@Lady_Ada_King
Mind if i steal that quote for later?
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
Sure! I see a lot of confirmation bias: the set of people who will jump through the high-friction install is low, but they are engaged
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
This plays into the Android-blindness: in the US and many other developed nations, ~100% of those PM and business folks carry iOS devices
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
...and iOS sets your sights low for the web. This causes terrible cognitive dissonance for folks trying to grow their businesses.
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
For many, it has been a tough shift to think "mobile first" and in developed markets, the rich people *also* have iOS devices.
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
If you're looking at revenue growth in your existing (developed) market, you might dismiss the web offhand or relegate to desktop.
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
Lots of companies we talk to have gone through this cycle. They built for the web, tried to do responsive w/o rewrite or scale-down
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
...predictably found out that people didn't want these bad experiences. Tried native apps; got some good data from most engaged users...
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
...then hit a wall. Native app distribution flatlines very quickly unless you keep pumping marketing and/or UI degrading prompts into it.
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
But for many teams this isn't a (short term) problem. They are in different parts of the org: native apps either outsourced or in other team
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
...and frequently funded out of speculative budgets (marketing, R&D, etc.). This deprives the organisation of rapid learning.
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
So they learn on long timescales (a.k.a. the expensive and hard way) that these sorts of prompts can "work" but in a highly contingent way.
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
Luckily we now have PWA tech in browsers and companies/brands can run *real* A/B tests. What does that look like?
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
First, you want to track the total funnel from a prompt. What's the *overall* CTR for a web users to convert? Are launches the same?
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
To get this data you need to invest in PWA-ifying your website. Users adding non-app-like experiences to their homescreens is apples/oranges
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
Confoundingly, Web Push is unbundled from app install. When we tell folks this it takes them a little while to get it, then "ooooooohhhhhh!"
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
This is *great* for users, but makes the A/B test much harder to do rigorously.
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
Imagine you're the Tumblr or Reddit PM: what's your *goal*? Is it to tell a great story to your boss/board about the # of installs?
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
(remember that installs aren't a business metric; they may have zero correlation with profit.)
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
In SF, "installs" too often viewed as a strong proxy for growth. Savvy folks know better, but definitionally there aren't many savvy peeps
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
You can often get promoted for a long time by driving up installs even if all you're doing is strip-mining user value & slowing development
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
Small companies too often do this organisational learning in a darwinian way. Big companies outside of tech can frequently apply more rigor.
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
...but they tend not to be as familiar with all of the options. And there's no marketing department for the open, interoperable web.
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
Very few businesses have run real A/B tests and fewer will share the comparative native app/PWA engagement/cost data.
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
(for obvious reasons; it's either competitive advantage, potentially embarrassing for the folks internally who pushed native apps, or both)
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
We have an inexact proxy in the cost to acquire a user installation (the top of the "install" funnel of engagement). Those #'s look *great*
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
Housing.com
's cost to acquire a PWA user is 50x lower. Selio's was (only) 10x lower.
Look Up a place to Buy/Rent in India | Housing
Search Property in India's most trusted Real Estate Portal. Browse New projects, flats, ready to move apartments for sale #Housing.com.
housing.com
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
It's going to take a while for the big companies that can both invest in PWAs and do rigorous studies to feel comfortable sharing, I fear
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
...and of course this could just be wrong! It could absolutely be the case that there's some property of native apps we've totally missed.
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
And there's also the very real possibility that the folks making PWAs will just drown the experience in script so it'll never feel good.
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
...which in a different way deprives us of real A/B examples. Web developers are still struggling to take mobile seriously.
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
So that's what we're up against. People putting terrible prompts on sites that could just be PWAs are doing what they think reasonable.
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
...and for iOS (which takes up a disproportionate amount of mind-space), it *might* be reasonable. It's complicated!
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
The prompts and dark UI patterns (*ahem*, Messenger tab in FB on mobile) are bad for users & degrade experience of the web.
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
...but we won't end them until we convince businesses that they're *also* not good for the bottom line.
Mauricio
@demakase86
I think you should put all these ideas in a terrific medium post we could find later 👍
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
Noted.
Abdón Rodríguez
@abdonrd
Yes, please!
Thomas Balouet
@thomasbalou
Yep, +1
Alfredo Juárez
@alfrekjv
I second this motion. Great insights!
Robert Anderson
@noisysocks
curious about these numbers. is there somewhere I can learn more about this?
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
We talked about them at CDS:
Building Progressive Web Apps Today (Chrome Dev Summit 2016)
Progressive Web Apps are all about improving your user experience. Thao Tran shares some success stories and gives some guidance. Watch more recordings from ...
youtube.com
j o s e p h
@Joseph_Wynn
This entire thread is 💯 btw. Really insightful, would read again
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
To be fair, historically native apps have had positive attributes webapps haven't. Need to build good PWA to see equivalence.
Arthur Stolyar
@nekrtemplar
can push permission be automatically granted on install especially with WebAPK?
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
We're looking at that. I'm not convinced it's a better user experience.
Arthur Stolyar
@nekrtemplar
Probably. Not saying it's 100% good. On the other hand, business will have more reasons to make PWA because that will be 1 (a2hs) prompt
Arthur Stolyar
@nekrtemplar
Instead of 2: a2hs + web push
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
That assumes business need more reasons. But I take the point.
Arthur Stolyar
@nekrtemplar
That's wrong phrasing probably. "Business will be more convinced" maybe. All reasons are there, tough to explain it some times.
Arthur Stolyar
@nekrtemplar
Also many managers who managed native app previously start managing PWAs are demand push perm request immediately on PWA load
Arthur Stolyar
@nekrtemplar
also I had a request about "on-boarding process" for PWA.. so..
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
Yep. It's a change. Do you talk to them about push sub *before* install? Not possible on native, big advantage.
Arthur Stolyar
@nekrtemplar
I showed them
@owencm
's UX guide for web push and they agreed to it. Would have hard times explaining myself otherwise
Arthur Stolyar
@nekrtemplar
It's easier to convince clients when something was written "by the Google who invented PWA"
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
Fascinating and a little sad. Might have been my plan, but wouldn't have happened w/o Moz, Samsung, and many, many others!!
Arthur Stolyar
@nekrtemplar
I know, I know. I have an article about that :-) (that one without "fact" 😄)
Progressive Web Apps isn’t a Google-only thing – Arthur Stolyar – Medium
Progressive Web Apps isn’t a technology, but a terminology which describes rich website in a way of quality and ability to progress as …
medium.com
Diego González
@diekus
You're missing the
@samsunginternet
logo I believe.
Arthur Stolyar
@nekrtemplar
That was long time ago. Also image was googled and I believe I used that image to show major browsers. e.g. UCBrowser also not included
Ada Rose 🏳️🌈✊🏾🌍
@Lady_Ada_King
Woah thanks for the amazing thread!! Sorry didn't reply was stepping onto a plane when I tweeted. Landed to over 100 notifications!!!
Maximiliano Firtman
@firt
Do we have examples of companies doing PWAs to compete to their native apps?Most are "Lite" versions. They are afraid of taking the big step
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
Most of the "Lite" branding belies (near) feature equivalence: Twitter, Lyft, Flipkart, etc. Seriously, try both native and their PWAs.
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
And "lite" refers to the user value of not needing to wade through an app install. Also a nice way not to raise hackles of native teams.
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
Remember that PWA teams inside orgs are often _insurgents_ against an all-in-on-native strategy.
Nicolas
@necolas
You might notice Twitter Lite has no native app install banner (for most users), because we do better without them now
Jonathan Fielding
@JonthanFielding
Its a shame I can't even get to the Facebook website any more on mobile, it auto navigates to the app
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
If you uninstall the app, should be accessible?
Jonathan Fielding
@JonthanFielding
The problem is I used the web for one account and app for another so that's not an option 😭
Dan Webb
@danwrong
That's such a good thing to hear. Says a lot for how important good web perf is.
Hervé Tutuaku
@_Syu93
That's why we need to find a way to give them real metrics to convince PMs to go Web. Love your Wego example Is their any written on this?
Maximiliano Firtman
@firt
I don't think users understand that idea of "Lite". That's a value only for users with low level devices or countries with bandwidth issues.
Maximiliano Firtman
@firt
Twitter is promoting the PWA as Opera promoting Opera Mini, not the full Opera browser. And Twitter is not the only one.
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
It's turned on for all of
mobile.twitter.com
. Flipkart "Lite" is all of
Flipkart.com
on mobile, etc. Watch what they *do*.
Online Shopping Site for Mobiles,Fashion,Books,Electronics,Home Appliances & More @ Flipkart
Shop for electronics, apparels & more using our Flipkart app Free shipping & COD.
flipkart.com
Maximiliano Firtman
@firt
Flipkart is great example. But they still promote the installation of their native app within the PWA. It's like two steps forward, one back
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
Where? I don't see it.
Maximiliano Firtman
@firt
I took some screenshots when I saw those app banners. I'll search for them in my android devices and share. Probably not today 😎
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
Not seeing it now:
Andrea Giammarchi
@WebReflection
Oh ...the irony is strong with that one
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
You're on iOS...It's reasonable for brands to try to get installs there; Apple blocks meaningful PWA support 🤷
Maximiliano Firtman
@firt
I saw the banners on Android. In fact it happened live on a conference. Not sure if it's still there or not. But it was an unclear message
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
Good businesses experiment. You might try asking
@nagarajuepuri
, tho.
Nagaraju Epuri
@nagarajuepuri
We are in the process of completely removing traces of "App Install" page and killing it. If you saw one previously, it's due to tech glitch
Nagaraju Epuri
@nagarajuepuri
We strive to provide best possible experience wherever user lands(including all features) "Lite" or "No Lite" is just a name of product
Nagaraju Epuri
@nagarajuepuri
I wish every org follows this and takes away of user perception of "Lite". We r in an era where providing best experience across is possible
Nagaraju Epuri
@nagarajuepuri
I believe this is just a matter of time before everyone realises this fact and start delivering near same experience across all channels
Andrea Giammarchi
@WebReflection
we're still missing some very basic, *truly* cross-platform, App-like features, but I agree we're definitively moving to the right direction
Andrea Giammarchi
@WebReflection
I'd agree with you if once there using safari I'd be asked to install their app too. That's not the case though, they probably have old card
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
Double 🤷
Ada Rose 🏳️🌈✊🏾🌍
@Lady_Ada_King
I still use FT as a good example, they took the risk went PWA only on iOS back in the day to incredible success.
Ada Rose 🏳️🌈✊🏾🌍
@Lady_Ada_King
They supported a wide range of platforms with a small team back when interop was much worse even flexbox was an enhancement.
Ada Rose 🏳️🌈✊🏾🌍
@Lady_Ada_King
On top of that they charge a subscription to use it! Showing that people were willing to pay for a web experience, against the common wisdom
Ada Rose 🏳️🌈✊🏾🌍
@Lady_Ada_King
All of this during a time when there was no service worker, no install banners, no ambient badging, no push notifications.
Ada Rose 🏳️🌈✊🏾🌍
@Lady_Ada_King
The guardian wrote an article about it from 2013!!!
Financial Times: 'There is no drawback to working in HTML5'
FT.com managing director Rob Grimshaw on apps evolution, paywall prospects and why BuzzFeed is 'absolutely fascinating'. By Stuart Dredge
theguardian.com
Maximiliano Firtman
@firt
I know all about it. I wrote about it before the guardian article. What's the point? It wasn't enough. They were pretty much alone for years
Maximiliano Firtman
@firt
I'm not saying we have a tech problem. I'm saying we are over reacting on how companies are trusting the Web Platform and PWAs.
Maximiliano Firtman
@firt
If we don't accept the problem we won't find a solution to it, if there is a need for a solution. Hiding the real situation doesn't help.
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
I literally have no idea what you're talking about. You make progress one improvement at a time; that world isn't perfect != not improving.
Maximiliano Firtman
@firt
OK. I think it's enough for a Sunday Twitter discussion. But the PWA approach needs more action and less talking if it wants to succeed.
Maximiliano Firtman
@firt
We need more Google (replace with other company) replacing a native app with a PWA. If it doesn't happen, companies don't trust enough.
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
Many people confuse having succeeded with the grungy work of making progress a reality.
Ada Rose 🏳️🌈✊🏾🌍
@Lady_Ada_King
I was on that team. It was very talented team with some great testers. I'm not saying it's easy. No success is easy but it is inspirational.
Owen Campbell-Moore
@owencm
Google pre-installs its apps, hence the proposition of low friction makes less sense for us. It's unfortunate, I'd love to see us lead 😕
Ada Rose 🏳️🌈✊🏾🌍
@Lady_Ada_King
Oh I am just saying that if it could be done then. It should be easier to make a successful PWA today.
Ben Kelly
@wanderview
FWIW, I asked them about their Twitter card config last year. It's from before their PWA work, but not clear why it hasn't changed.
Aditya Punjani
@adityapunjani
This is because of Twitter App Card (
dev.twitter.com/cards/types/app
) included from the desktop site. Legacy behavior.
Aditya Punjani
@adityapunjani
If you saw that it was during an experiment we had to run, the results of which convinced enough folks at Flipkart never to do it again ;)
Maximiliano Firtman
@firt
Good to hear that. It was a weird message.
Arthur Stolyar
@nekrtemplar
It's sad thing that showing native app banner is industry enough and every company and manager has to be convinced not to do it.
Aditya Punjani
@adityapunjani
Can't argue without data.
Arthur Stolyar
@nekrtemplar
With me? Why argue with me. With them? Yes, sad thing.
Arthur Stolyar
@nekrtemplar
BTW, about that and Google:
Arthur Stolyar
@nekrtemplar
Industry enough -> Industry standard
Ben Kelly
@wanderview
Yea, twitter "lite" has no user visible branding AFAICT. Dev blog post won't be seen by most users.
Maximiliano Firtman
@firt
I'm not saying is bad. But we need big players taking the big step before saying PWAs are worthwhile. If not, no one believe us 😒
Nicolas
@necolas
More people experience Twitter Lite than any other Twitter client; we're just getting started. People don't need to believe, they can see.
Nicolas
@necolas
PWAs combine good UX, reduced costs (team size, user acquisition, service, platform), huge and easy reach, and multiple new opportunities
Maximiliano Firtman
@firt
I think nobody in this thread is saying the contrary or not believing on that.
Eitan Peer
@eitanp461
Since PWAs are web, they are also less of a security risk than native apps, right?
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
To the extent that web apps are less of a security risk than native apps, yes.
Voodoo artisan
@andrewhowdencom
Speaking as a random user with a mild understanding of all things PWA; Twitter PWA is awesome! GG Well done.
Dan Bucholtz
@danbucholtz
Can you share more adoption info? I am surprised so many more people choose
twitter.com
on mobile over an app install.
Dan Bucholtz
@danbucholtz
However I am in the USA so it's obviously different in other parts of the world
Sanat Gersappa
@sanatgersappa
Been using it for a few weeks now and love it. Add list management and I'm all in.
Jacob Mischka
@jacobmischka
"More people experience Twitter Lite than any other Twitter client" wow, I would not have guessed that at all
Arthur Stolyar
@nekrtemplar
If they were starting today, I bet they could just write PWA and do not write native version. Then just package with Cordova for the store
Karan Peri
@karanperi
True. 'Lite' has little do with feature sets.
Maximiliano Firtman
@firt
I didn’t say it has to do with that, but just seeing the definition most people use
Karan Peri
@karanperi
The 'low-fat' definition seems better :-) Hopefully metrics should start informing opinions soon.
Chitrak Gangrade
@ChitrakGangrade
But do the users understand that?
Ada Rose 🏳️🌈✊🏾🌍
@Lady_Ada_King
It's less of a mouthful than PWA, and if twitter doing a 'lite' ver gets people building PWAs then I think that is okay.
Maximiliano Firtman
@firt
I know but they are not convinced, they told theirs users this is not the full app. With that happening, difficult to make a fair comparison
Arthur Stolyar
@nekrtemplar
* Lite -- better scrolling * Native -- sidebar drawer works better All the difference :-)
Chitrak Gangrade
@ChitrakGangrade
You should check out Flipkart lite side drawer. We spent a lot of time getting that right!
Arthur Stolyar
@nekrtemplar
I did, it's great! But you may want to checkout Polymer's drawer: at
wego.com
or
polymer-project.org/2.0/start/
Karan Peri
@karanperi
Apples to apples would be native app with 'Added to homescreen' metrics, given a well executed PWA.
Alan Hogan
@AlanHogan
having a hard time understanding the last part here. Typo I can’t figure out maybe?
Alex Russell
@slightlylate
yeah, sorry, auto"correct". s/didn't/experiment/
Alan Hogan
@AlanHogan
thanks!
Bob Ippolito
@etrepum
This could also be an ad revenue thing. More money in native ads that can't be blocked and aren't limited by what a browser will allow.
Flaki
@slsoftworks
bleh 😥😝
Mauricio
@demakase86
Also I think it you can only browse for a bit before it asks you to use the app or else 😳
Henry Lim
@henrylim96
How to build webapp in 2017 - Make a really really great webapp (PWA if possible)❤️ - Put a big "Install the native app" banner - 🖕🏻
Kim
@realkimhansen
Good thread, pasted all up in our Slack, thanks much.
David E
@Eastmad
the kidz like apps. That's all there is to it
Tinus
@Tinusg
It's because adblockers can't block the ads inside those apps.