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Today's FAZ report on May's disastrous dinner with Juncker - briefed by senior Commission sources - is absolutely damning.
3,713 replies and sub-replies as of May 01 2017
1) May had said she wanted to talk not just Brexit but also world problems; but in practice it fell to Juncker to propose one to discuss.
2) May has made clear to the Commission that she fully expects to be reelected as PM.
3) It is thought [in the Commission] that May wants to frustrate the daily business of the EU27, to improve her own negotiating position.
4) May seemed pissed off at Davis for regaling her dinner guests of his ECJ case against her data retention measures - three times.
5) EU side were astonished at May's suggestion that EU/UK expats issue could be sorted at EU Council meeting at the end of June.
6) Juncker objected to this timetable as way too optimistic given complexities, eg on rights to health care.
7) Juncker pulled two piles of paper from his bag: Croatia's EU entry deal, Canada's free trade deal. His point: Brexit will be v v complex.
8) May wanted to work through the Brexit talks in monthly, 4-day blocks; all confidential until the end of the process.
9) Commission said impossible to reconcile this with need to square off member states & European Parliament, so documents must be published.
10) EU side felt May was seeing whole thing through rose-tinted-glasses. "Let us make Brexit a success" she told them.
11) Juncker countered that Britain will now be a third state, not even (like Turkey) in the customs union: "Brexit cannot be a success".
12) May seemed surprised by this and seemed to the EU side not to have been fully briefed.
13) She cited her own JHA opt-out negotiations as home sec as a model: a mutually useful agreement meaning lots on paper, little in reality.
14) May's reference to the JHA (justice and home affairs) opt-outs set off alarm signals for the EU side. This was what they had feared.
15) ie as home sec May opted out of EU measures (playing to UK audience) then opted back in, and wrongly thinks she can do same with Brexit
16) "The more I hear, the more sceptical I become" said Juncker (this was only half way through the dinner)
17) May then insisted to Juncker et al that UK owes EU no money because there is nothing to that effect in the treaties.
18) Her guests then informed her that the EU is not a golf club
19) Davis then objected that EU could not force a post-Brexit, post-ECJ UK to pay the bill. OK, said Juncker, then no trade deal.
20) ...leaving EU27 with UK's unpaid bills will involve national parliaments in process (a point that Berlin had made *repeatedly* before).
21) "I leave Downing St ten times as sceptical as I was before" Juncker told May as he left
22) Next morning at c7am Juncker called Merkel on her mobile, said May living in another galaxy & totally deluding herself
23) Merkel quickly reworked her speech to Bundestag to include her now-famous "some in Britain still have illusions" comment
24) FAZ concludes: May in election mode & playing to crowd, but what use is a big majority won by nurturing delusions of Brexit hardliners?
25) Juncker's team now think it more likely than not that Brexit talks will collapse & hope Brits wake up to harsh realities in time.
26) What to make of it all? Obviously this leak is a highly tactical move by Commission. But contents deeply worrying for UK nonetheless.
27) The report points to major communications/briefing problems. Important messages from Berlin & Brussels seem not to be getting through.
28) Presumably as a result, May seems to be labouring under some really rather fundamental misconceptions about Brexit & the EU27.
29) Also clear that (as some of us have been warning for a while...) No 10 should expect every detail of the Brexit talks to leak.
30/30) Sorry for the long thread. And a reminder: full credit for all the above reporting on the May/Juncker dinner goes to the FAZ.
It's an amazing scoop.
Great stuff, thanks for making it so easily digestible
Under no circumstances apologise. This went straight into my #BrexitMeansUtterShambles collection after tweet 7.
Thanks for the long thread and thanks for the reporting @faznet 🙏
Flawed and biased from FAZ
Extraordinary
Horrifying
Farcical
A summit meeting scripted by Terry Gilliam
With these special effects
The only thing that concerns me is the time it will take to leave. They need to speed up the process.
What? What? 'I want a divorce as quickly as possible, and any other concern is mere details'. Can I marry you?
No I don't believe in commiting to something for emotive reasons without reading the small print.
Sorry, you just broke my irony detector after reading that in conjunction with your first point.
They should never have signed us up to Lisbon and Maastricht treaties. Should have just been about trade.
None of this EU undemocratic political authoritarianism.
And invented
Reminds me of watching Titanic. We all know a big bloody iceberg is making an appearance some time soon
I really want to know the really important points that the delusional U.K. will want to know. What was on the menu Was food good#MasterChef
Terry Pratchett would be more like it...
Or more like an episode of curb your enthusiasm or the thick of it
One suspects that nobody dare tell May what the real world looks like. That’s not a terribly good leadership quality.
Or that she's got rid of anyone whose advice wasn't palatable.
Keep saying he should go work for the EU side. Ivor Roberts knows where the bodies are buried.
I'm sure you are a fair and balanced academic without massive ideological bias.... your poor students
Hilarious.
Sorry, no. Evidence points to deliberate plan, cloaked in propaganda (internally). It's worrying that EU side does not see the plot:
The idea that May lives in a dream world is risible. She is far too smart and track record proves she is good at tactics. Thus, >
question ought to be: what is her present strategy trying to achieve? Answer is obvious, but so far fetched to look delusional.
However, judging her on what she does, the pieces fall into place rather neatly. I'll summarise a few, with apologies for intrusion.
1. Right wing media openly depicts dissenter as traitors. May is manifestly OK with this attitude.
2. IP Bill:
UK Joins Russia And China In Legalizing Bulk Surveillance
The highly-intrusive Investigatory Powers Bill has been passed by the UK's House of Lords, and will come into force within weeks. The rest of the world should take note.
forbes.com
3. Government is also asking businesses to align, "or else..." theguardian.com/politics/2017/… No significant backslash is visible... Astonishing!
Firms bidding for government contracts asked if they back Brexit
Department for International Trade says tech companies should have the right ‘cultural fit’ if they want to be hired
theguardian.com
4. May is happy to be supportive of Trump and Erdoğan, to trade arms with SaudiA, etc. Upholding democracy not a priority, judging on deeds
5. Her internal propaganda is: I can deliver "strong and stable", "we need to unite as a nation", also "no deal is better than bad deal".
6. She has managed to make people believe what she's asking to the EU is reasonable. Q: how could she possibly believe it? A: she doesn't.
7 .Her strategy is to blame nasty Europeans when she won't get what she's promising. (Point 6 is crucial, and already in the bag)
8. At that point, she can use consequent hardship to implement extraordinary policies. For a hard crisis, more extreme measures are possible
9. What Policies? Clue is in what has been done already (IP bill?) and current spin. "Strong and stable" remember? Also:
10. "We can't afford an effective opposition to actually oppose" despite Labour being extraordinarily ineffective. Smell a rat already?
11. She'll make the UK a low-tax gateway to proper tax havens (please a good portion of the City) and keep big business happy.
12. She will also have visible reasons to get closer to Trump, Erdoğan, Saudi Arabia and perhaps Russia.
13. Meanwhile, government has to be seen as only legitimate expression of the unique (and known) Will of The People. Sounds familiar?
14. British right-wing media have been pushing point 13 as hard as possible, with good success and no significant backlash. Coincidence?
15. What did May say when calling #GE2017? Anything that supports the above? I could not make this up!
16. In summary, what she's after *should* be familiar. But it is also outrageous to the point of being inconceivable.
17. She's promoting a new (apparently soft) kind of fascism. She has a plan, she's following it.
Fascism for dummies
Brexit, the unchallenged pile of lies which enabled it, and now Trump. If you are not scared, you haven’t been paying attention. There are many visible reasons to be scared, but more worrying…
sergiograziosi.wordpress.com
18. I have no idea how EU could try to stop her, but if they don't realise it, it's worrying and dangerous. I repeat: she is NOT stupid.
19. If she isn't delusional, another explanation is due. Unfortunately, the above fits the evidence too well for comfort. (END)
I suspect some people believed Lord Haw Haw too. This is just EU propaganda
An utter shit-show. Thanks for outlining all this so clearly for us.
Yup. I hd May down as a liar and a fraud from day 1 , but this makes even more of a mockery of the ridiculous 'strong and stable' bullshit.
Yes, I'd rather listen to (& trust?) the unelected bureaucrat Juncker than the soon-to-be-resoundingly democratically elected PM of the UK.
Horrifying for who?
They both seem deluded. May has rose tinted glasses and Juncker downplays how much trade with the UK helps the economy of other EU members
They are politicians but they are different. One will soon be elected by the people and the other will remain unelected by the people.
You're right - but I bet May got far, far more out of that "disastrous" meeting than Juncker actually did. May is a smart cookie.
Juncker simply thinks he's had his prejudices of British/May delusion confirmed. May will use that to her/our advantage later on.
And I refuse to believe May didn't consider the possibility of it all being leaked, which means she now knows exactly where she stands:
Of course😊
Negotiations are unlikely to be conducted confidentially or in good faith. She's learned important things. Juncker confirmed his prejudices.
Then if they are we make a clean break. We have a fall back position.
Many people's idea of Brexit is to negotiate a remain. We are leaving.
Very good. The Brits need to have their ass whooped in order to realise they're nothing special.
Thanks for all the info. Quite eye-opening really.
Affirms PM et al harbour this 'superior' colonial attitude of being better and more deserving than all others- 'but, but we are GB!'
Do grow up
isn't there some annual festival in the Bahamas we can just send May and Trump to, forever?
why did you tweet this rather than, say, try to corroborate and blog, Jeremy?
"leak is a highly tactical move"
What sort of reporter accepts uncritically a one-sided account especially from a known drunk like Junker?
Fantastic thread but Juncker was probably very drunk at the time
The reality is with May.
This happens when in your head is full of one liner: "Strong and Stubborn Leadeship"
It's not exactly going to play badly for May though? May Vs Juncker would produce a more comprehensive result in Britain than May Vs Corbyn
Amateur hour. Absolutely gut wrenchingly negligent. Terrifying.
26. Commission regards leaks as tactics
29. Expect more leaks
Agree, horrifying. We're dealing with dogs.
#Brexit @JakeWSimons
British seem to be in the position of being made an example of how not to do it ! The EU Is Terrified of other following! Hardball indeed !
We VOTED to LEAVE the EU. Remainers still coming to terms. EU will do a deal based on Price to leave. Do not be afraid.
They should me a movie using your thread :-). Reads like a thriller, should be a thriller ;-)!
great. we just walk away. Short term pain, long term gain 😁😁😁🏃🏃🏃🏃
I love that you're rooting for the EU because you don't want us to leave. All this means is No Deal. Thanks and Bye.
Absolutely astonishing
The scariest thing is that it's not on the front page or politics page of the FAZ. Had to search for the article. Brexit is low priority
Yet not, somehow. Completely predictable.
Minds me of the line from 'All the President's men': "the truth is, these are not very bright guys, and things got out of hand".
It is.
"Brexit cannot be a success" is hardly a great start for good negotiations ...
Thanks for this amazing thread!
Thanks for that, Jeremy. Wow.
Disturbing that May seems to be completely insulated from the real world.
I blame those gates at the end of Downing Street.
I'm sure there's a secret plan. Right?
Vote for me to strengthen my hand and give strong and stable government...
I don't believe Juncker's ever up at 7
Holy shit.
Well worth reading from beginning to end, thanks. Important material here for all sides to ponder, the British most of all.
But it's biased from one side..full of agenda that it can't be taken seriously..almost as if Juncker was gonna brief this no matter what
Why the British most of all ????? It's fake news
Ah - now we can see you for who you are.
The delusion of May the tories there for all to see, dealing with reality is not their strong point
Thanks Jeremy, great job with reporting all this! In other words, UK is probably lost. Tough luck.
No deal would mean French and other citizens have uncertainty about rights. No doubt MPs would pressure govt to protect. Not guaranteed.
Transparency on all of the proceedings (even by leaks) is the best way for the EU to disarm populists. They learned from TTIP.
And lead to no Brexit deal, so the EU loses billions in a black hole in budget, UK falls to WTO. EU nationals exposed.
Thanks for that: really informative (and terrifying).
Thank you for this work.
She has no idea how ridiculous this sounds to anyone not living in her Brexit bubble? Steady, less pressured EU are going to roast us. FFS.
Its not so much roast as setting us straight. There were huge advantages to EU, but lets make up stuff and leave anyway. UK at its worst.
ty for this fascinating & embarrassing insight
Much appreciated @JeremyCliffe this is fucking mad
EU spin....
Completely barmy!
Please don't apologise! Thank you so much for this. May is beyond delusional isn't she? Terrifying to have such an idiot lead our country!
Well you've swallowed that haven't you...😂 and I voted Remain
No problem. Thank you. @LibDems
Eu national in the UK reading this.
This zen mood won't last but I'm enjoying them being exposed as the incompetent evil meanies that we knew they were.
Can you imagine how we Remainers feel? 😳😱 Only silver lining is more she cocks up better chance Brexit implodes.
My only hope is this nasty bitch isn't PM.
This is true
My cheeks are pink reading this😳What an embarrassment😨We are being led by fools🤡#noconfidence #appalling 🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺
as somebody said. they're ready to treat us Eu people like this. Do you think they'll treat you better?
At least I can go. Feel sorry for u
I feel sorry for me and my family too😖They embody why #Tories are the #nastyparty They care for nothing but money and themselves. #ToriesOut
I imagine you feel like the confused internationalists that you are. Imagine thinking May is the problem...
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
As I said
yep exactly. I kind thought she was doing it on purpose.. but then I remember her previous performances and I'm like naaaaah
😂you'd rather remain a slave to an organisation that treats your country like shit? This behaviour is exactly why we voted to leave.
Brexit imploding would mean no deal.
Yes, that's the most likely scenario but what I meant was I hope reality kicks in & we row back.
It would be political sucide for any British govt to go, sorry too hard. We are staying after all.
you need statesmen, not politicians. And I'm afraid you have none.
As a remainer its my hope but we have a 2017GE to win #jc4pm a better negotiator
At what cost that's the problem
Only way for us is to gain Independence #ScotRef soon ...#GetMeOutOf Here please @NicolaSturgeon & pals 👍
UK national in UK reading this.
I thank you for taking the trouble to let us know - thought it was bad but this is horrendous !
The touchpaper has been well and truly lit! Thanks for thread
Utterly bonkers! Thank you for the thread.
Is May disingenuous or stupid and does it make any difference either way?
Amazing - and you source is who exactly and some proof would be good to - Fairy tails and all that
Don't apologize for the long thread I've read it all and as you are grauniad I'll treat it with the contempt it deserves
I guess from your lack of reply you're getting pissed up with Juncker on the taxpayers expense then
Very interesting thread; thank you. Needs serious RTing
Just leave then.
So... it's exactly as we feared
No exactly as we all KNEW. No surprises for me.
read all of these 30 tweets. Fuck.
Basically we are fucked.
Thank you, and thank you, FAZ.
Brexit is largely about supercilious and patronising 'journalists' such as yourself
That's a superb reason to shoot ourselves in the foot, well done!
Have faith in yourself
The inverted commas. So cute.
No apology required
I don't suppose you could summarise that in 140 characters?
Vision of Juncker leaving the meeting, thinking of the British electorate and muttering "Poor, Bastards," sadly shaking his head.....
*hic!* trips up curb
Thanks so much for this ,Jeremy. Seems like May doesn't have a clue ,, god help us
Divorce. She says I want the kids the house and your pension. He says you'll get nothing. Eventually a there's a deal
The problem is that the marriage was never the problem so the divorcee will be left alone with the same problems but no more partner to help
The marriage was the ONLY problem
They're both divorcees
Divorce is a dumb analogy when one side is made up of 27 cooperating spouses.
It's one negotiating bloc though
That takes years to not reach an agreement, and then have the Germans make the decision ,EU is floundering and has to resort to leaks
That may be true, but that would be a reason why a worse outcome for the UK is likeliest, if not inevitable
The "worse" outcome is we pay through the nose. The German trade bodies are already worried about losing the UK market if they tarring us
Tariff !!
I agree they would want to retain UK as an export market, but we take only c8% of their GDP so they're not going to die in a ditch for us
Germany is massively affected. I think #Merkel might have an opinion
‼⚠️🆘🇩️🇮️🇫️🇺️🇳️🇩️🇪️🆘⚠️‼️
📍#CampaignDinaAli #SaveDinaAli
➡️ @Pontifex_es y @hazteoir no han RT para ayudarla hazlo TU
[MAXDIFU] URGENTE. Campaña @hrw para salvar a la joven #saoudienne Dina Ali Lasloom hrw.org/SaveDinaAli #SaveDinaAli #ArabieSaoudite
The EU ,having to show their books might be the reason for all this bluster and panic ,as for the Germans the EU is their wayward child
How does that work, then?
Plenty of other countries in the world to sell to......BMW also make cars here too. They can make them elsewhere too.......
Affected how? (Apart from our 8% of their GDP). I'm pretty sure Merkel will have an opinion - what impact do you think that will have?
And typical of the #remain side of this debate, no need to call my analogy "dumb". You can disagree without insults as Juncker may yet find
The marriage is very much the problem. Partner controlling, profligate with money, doesn't listen
Oh, I see where I misunderstood. You are talking about our government, not the EU. In that case, your description is accurate.
One partner keeps all the assets ,while the other chases new loves and winds up alone in a bedsit
Or like husband has mid-life crisis tries to leave wife and kids with nothing - reality leaves him broke + paying high rent to slum landlord
Hahaha! Like it. Don't agree but like it !!
Not really... That's what women get in a divorce.
It's this kind of moronic over-simplification that has created the mess we are in.
*WE*? You are in Melbourne !!! What's #brexit to go with you ?
I'm going to assume from your diversion that you agree it was a moronic oversimplification
Fairly predictable really.
This is the scariest shit imaginable ... our msm have a public duty to report this I knew may was crazy but I way underestimated #batshit
But Murdoch, Desmond, Rothermere et al want the hardest of Brexits, so they aren't going to. It's all going to plan.
this s all hearsay from one side. All seen through the EU27 glasses.
Help me understand, please, how does a larger mandate give May more power at the EU27 #Brexit negotiations. I fail to see the connection
there isn't any... it's a hard Brexit.
This needs to get all over UK headlines. We can't have someone this inept heading up our government as we go into such complex talks.
But James..it's a deliberate EU attempt to bad mouth the UK..it's so one-sided that it beggars belief..don't believe everything you read 👍
Also the reports of 'bad mouthing UK' just makes people more determined that we should leave!
This definitely needs to be all over the UK headlines so as the British people can see the contempt we are held in by Euro elite #brexit
UK is so wrekt
Surely all this says is Juncker is annoyed the UK is pushing back . Damning for UK on premise being in EU *is* worthwhile. It may not be
Pushing back? Who do you think has the leverage here? Brexiters want the benefits of EU with none of the responsibility. Not gonna happen.
And we could just have stayed. Of course most not even interested in what the EU is. This is the triumphant moment of britfuckery in my life
Juncker is irrelevant. The important terms of Brexit will be decided by Bundesbank.
Or the Rep of Ireland govt as no deal would mean EU imposing hard border for customs and EU border agency.
British govt has been clear that the UK/Irish border is to kept as it is today.
Wonder if EU would get blowback if they impose full border controls like they do elsewhere while no border control on British side.
This is all leaked at EU as thread says. Juncker hardly likely to report back "she's playing hardball" is he?
This is true, and worth remembering.
Jeremy you're as boring and deluded as Corbyn. The UK won't buckle
"The UK won't buckle"? Won't it? May, Davis have got *nothing* to bring to the table.
Wow so all our trade with the EU won't be missed? Well Rab if you are correct why are the EU so keen to get us to change our minds and stay?
Are they indeed? Then someone ought to teĺl them, because that's certainly not what they're saying.
But, other than that, everything is perfect
This thread is absolutely excellent. I knew things were getting pretty bad for UK, but WOW things are far worse on the EU topic, apparently.
sadly #weakandwobbly doesn't even come close. Theresa May and #brexitshambles disaster, this thread should be read and spread wide. just wow
#HideAwayMay will resolve it! She is holding EU residents as hostages... sorry, bargaining chips.
this thread is incredible. UK about to be taught a serious lesson by the adults. #Brexit #TheresaMay #JeremyCorbyn
We're going to get a lot of "Lord Haw-Haw" reports such as this from The Economist over the next few years. It won't demoralise us! #Brexit
Big year for delusional leaders all over the world.... feeling your angst
Shockimg and frightening that 1yr on Brexit Govt. Ministers still have no grasp of what they want or how to achieve it. But not a surprise.
EU Ministers are clearly astonished at who they are dealing with. Bad for the country's current credibility and damaging for the future
Thank goodness for the EU providing the information we need to make informed decisions, our gov certainly won't!
What is the FAZ?
Frightening & fascinating. Like watching a drunk driver climb behind the wheel of a jam packed bus with no brakes on the edge of Beachy Head
She stopped at cafe for a friendly chat, breathing whisky over terrified onlookers, with half bus partying & other half screaming to get off
It's very telling that the EU wishes the talks to be open and public ( quite rightly), UK wants it all secret until it is finished.
Great thread. Thx
Thanks. Great account. But what about the food? Juncker seemed annoyed. Good. Serve him fish and chips every time he comes again.
As a remainer altho horrified I thought theres prob a plan. A bad, vague plan but some conscious thought at least. #Brexshit
This thread is like a horrormovie unfolding step by step.
hero! Thank you
Great stuff. Thank you.
Thank you Jeremy for this insightful thread. It really is an unbelievable moment
Very informative, thanks
Thanks Jeremy. The additional detail confirms what many have long suspected: UK hasn't got a clue; EU knows the rules and will follow them.
Come down to who blinks first. WTO rules & big business in EU & UK will be heard. Juncker is a wank who will only steel Brits in opposing EU
Too many lily-livered, frightful, fearful & timid snowflakes on here. I'm a remainer but fuck me I'm embarrassed to be associated with them
Why do we have to rely on outside sources for the disaster that awaits with May in charge of Brexit? Our media is a disgrace.
This was a leak to FAZ. So they got out first. Previous leaks have been made to UK press directly. Not this time.
Maybe we'll have to go to war with someone/anyone to distract us all from her gross incompetence
Not at all - thank you for confirming our worst fears re the attitudes of our deluded Brexiteer/Government clowns. And God help us.
no surprises here. don't ever apologise for providing such high quality information.
Thankyou Jeremy. Important info. ⭐️
What I don't understand is how the UK Govt can have missed all the messages c OK king from EU; I've picked them up, why haven't they?
Don't apologise - fantastic reporting and comment. Thank you.
Thank you. This is mind blowing stuff but fits exactly with the gulf between Brexit fantasy and Brexit reality!
At least she was strong and stable, as well as delusional.
Excellent. Disturbing.
Dont apologise. Really useful :)
Thanks for this, extraordinary and somewhat worrying for business.
Thank you for this. Deeply worrying.
Don't apologise. It's not like much of our traditional media would bother to inform us of this. Thank you.
One can see why The Economist has gone down the tubes in recent years
Dear God! 😕
seen this thread?
Jesus Christ May. Why are you humiliating us PM?
Do you have a link to the original article?
this entire thread makes me more convinced that even Corbyn couldn't do a worse job at Brexit than May!
Really? Because this thread has me convinced that Brexit is a terrible idea and that Corbyn should be offering actual opposition against it
I didn't say he'd do a good job! Just slightly less terrible than Theresa May
Great thread, thanks!
Excellent thread Jeremy.
Thanks for the info, much appreciated. 👍🏻👊🏻
Interesting..there are lots of 'seems to be' & other emotional words - couldn't this be subjective & from the pen of a Brexiteer? #justsayin
thank you. Very informative.
Fascinating and utterly appalling
Thanks for putting all this up.
What is the FAZ?
Forbes have now done a write up on it. See here:
The UK Government Is Completely Deluded About Brexit
A German newspaper has revealed that Theresa May's dinner with European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker last Wednesday was a total disaster. Leaked details of the proceedings show the extent of the breakdown in relations. No-deal Brexit now looks likelier than ever.
forbes.com
What do they mean "And although May herself comes across as sensible and pragmatic..." ?
German newspaper
Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung. It's like referring to the FT.
Major German newspaper based out of Frankfurt. One of the most respected.
German newspaper (Zeitung) from Frankfurt read here: m.faz.net/aktuell/wirtsc…
Oh my god
No apology needed - fascinating insight - ties in with everything else we've seen and heard from Mayhem's #CoalitionOfChaos.
don’t apologise - these things need to be reported.
Thanks to @JeremyCliffe for telling us the truth that @theresa_may is denying us. #brexit #ge2017 #Tories
Fascinating/terrifying but it's not a cheap scandal & cant be squeezed into a headline - so won't translate to lost votes at all.
THANK YOU for long thread.
Great summary
Having engineered #Brexit for their own #Selfservative reasons it's clear the @Conservatives haven't got a clue how to deliver it
Was the food any good??
Dumbfounded.
Excellent thread
Wonderful thread, and terrifying in equal measure. Thank you @JeremyCliffe
But many thanks to you for bringing it to our attention. Well done!
Please don't apologise it is a fascinating insight
Strong and stable government, brexit means brexit, red white and blue brexit. It all means nothing really May has been programmed
Clear that #may cannot set the agenda, doesn't know what the agenda is and the EU press will leak, thankfully, whilst ours will lie
Little wonder @Number10gov doesn't want to face the electorate after the negotiations.
Fantastic information
Maybe we should simply place 25% import tariff on German and French cars, unless here produced in U.K. See how the Germans try be fair then
Thx for sharing!
Brilliant summary -- thank you for posting.
Fascinating - thank you for posting
Have you posted this anywhere in a long format so it can be shared all in one?
eye opening... not in a good way!
Can we have a 30 tweet thread on how the UK viewed the meeting pls always 2 sides to a story and tbf Juncker has proved he can't be trusted
Except the UK wants to be professional and keep discussions confidential. Juncker is like a child having a tantrum because we want to leave.
Juncker ad proven time & again what a spoilt little child he is with comments towards the UK what's saddest is the British who side with him
More deluded Brits. There seems to be no shortage of those for whom reality is an illusion.
Unlike our joke Snap GE, this is not a personality contest. It isn't, contrary to what u feel, all about Juncker. This is about 27 countries
...each of which gets to decide on each section and clause of the divorce settlement and any new trade deals.
This is not going to be straightforward or easy. You appreciate that I'm sure. With our without PMMay having a stronger grip on negotiations
...or some of the other favourable prerequisites, the U.K. Is in the weaker position of the two negotiating groups. We knew this going in.
Even the Leave campaign made it abundantly clear Brexit would be hard and may result into economic hardship for the nation. U still chose it
I'm still waiting for this economic hardship I am also waiting for any meaningful prediction to come to fruition
We are not in weaker position we have 2nd largest net contributions so we are owed not other way round we also have huge trade deficit
It seems crazy to me to remove ourselves from our largest and nearest trading partner.
We are not removing ourselves we are merely coming to new arrangements
Yes I agree negotiations are going to be tough I don't doubt it but I question Junker's position that he has upper hand
He's got 27 upper hands. He isn't even trying to embarrass our PM. He's simply trying to get her to embrace reality. It pisses me off how
...much of a lie 52% of referendum voters were sold down river on. Friends should warn us when we are about to harm ourselves.
We were not sold down river you seem to not understand many of us have wanted out the EU for a very long time
And just to add I would still vote leave now I AM BRITISH NOT EUROPEAN
I what he is doing is feeding ppl like u the info you want to hear think about it he has been very critical of brexit from day 1
How do the EU have the upper hand please tell me I've already told u that we are 2nd net contributer and have a 60% trade deficit
No trade deals will be done until we leave article 50 all about divorce settlements
Yes it is but I am not questioning that I am questioning Junker's reliability
U r looking at this in pure black and white terms. It's not about sides. It's about wanting what's best for the country. It's about looking
...forwards or looking backwards. So far. No-one in Leave Camp or Tories or UKIP has made a compelling case for how we rescue the low paid
...and unemployed other than to encourage the deceitful POV that UK's wage stagnation, underfunded NHS,
Public services and schools is the
...fault of "uncontrolled immigration". These same saboteurs have admitted net migration numbers won't drop for at least another decade.
Meanwhile! No sensible solutions for how to fix our broken country. They just sold u what I want to hear. "Blame the Other".
Now u r going off in a tangent
Yes.
Sorry.
Not anime directly at you. I believe main driver of Brexit vote was and still is immigration. This makes it so difficult.
Sorry! Typed. *not aimed at you directly.
U first questioned my opinion on Junker I told u to look at his comments and u come back on some kind of rant in all sorts of topics
Low paid workers?
Zero hours contracts. Minimum wage. Needing to supplement low wages with housing benefit, child credits, food banks etc.
I agree with you I hate zero hours contracts but they only account for 2.8% of total workforce. And I have met many ppl who prefer them
As in working poor.
I am 100% with you here anyone on low wage should have wages bumped up I would do this by limiting length of time I can claim JSA
No I'm not you questioned my opinion on Junkers credibility so for u to assume my stance on anything else is pure speculation
In what way has Juncker been untrustworthy ?
Seriously? I haven't got the time to explain please look at history of his comments since EUref if u still question my opinion I can't help
However hot the soup is served, a Dutch expression runs, it has cooled down by the time you eat it. 😉
Don't apologise this is what the British people need to be informed about. Thanks
But as usual all u remainers jumping on band wagon but remember this we voted to leave and a clean break from the EU so this is irrelevant
This is intensely worrying, but reflects the delusional thinking that has marked May's approach to Brexit throughout.
Thank you for sharing. #remain
Would it have killed you to do just one tweet in this thread saying Juncker is not wholly reliable and has every motivation to do this?
How is this journalism really? Leaping on narratives that suit your worldview and gleefully 'reporting' it using the Economist cachet
LoL 😂😂😂
Feyi don vex
Sorry! U don't like real news. There's plenty of other places and threads u can go 2 read something more reassuring.
26) What to make of it all? Obviously this leak is a highly tactical move by Commission. But contents deeply worrying for UK nonetheless.
Even if this were only half true...the message is under Tory rule you're completely f***ed. There. Clear & motivated enough for you?!
Maybe see point #26?
Try 26)? Yep definitely some tactics involved but mostly based on facts and reality not some global fantasies...time to wake up, sport!
Based on the 'facts' that Juncker told you. And I'm the one who needs to wake up
Fact is EU knows they need to deal with real people, reality and real problems...not just made up fantasies TM dreams about
Yeah, look how they've dealt with problems in Southern Europe. Good job they're elected and have an incentive to address voters concerns
Well, UK still part of EU so do something about it...and don't just point fingers...does not help anyone.
EU officials take EU side in EU exit negotiations shocker.
No apology necessary, thank you for this.
Very interesting !!
Could you share a link to original FAZ story please?
Apparently the original story only appeared in the print version of Sunday's FAZ.
I've always said that I believe she's setting it all up to fail - she is a remainer at heart, after all. She'll pay the price, though.
(No comment)
Don't be sorry, thanks for the summary given.
What source do you have for this?
Thanks for the thread. Very worrying
May and Brexit made the miracle, consensus among all the member states.
Fair play / credit to FAZ, and to you; but this has not brightened my morning!
Thanks for the long thread, v helpful. Thx also to FAZ and Selmayr one presumes
Well worth a read.Some things are worth devoting the time to .Thank you.
Let's be honest Juncker can't let Brexit be a positive move for Britain. It would set a precedent for other countries to leave EU.
Yes but nor can he give Britian who have been member a deal wrost than Canada.
Don't be sorry - it sums up the arguments (or lack of) really well. Thank you for raising awareness. It's worse than we thought.
Thank you. Looks as if there will be no deal and a v hard Brexit.
I can't see it going any other way. Even if an agreement is reached, it could still fail at EU Parliament level.
Thank you
Excellent thread.
You are just desparete for us to fail. Hilarious
Thanks you for taking the time. That's a truly appalling image of our leader's incompetence
Thanks for this.
This whole thread warns us that #Brexit talks are likely to collapse, which, ironically, may be Remainers' best hope.
No, UK just leaves without deal. No trade deal, no deal on EU nationals, no deal on EU border with UK in Ireland.
great thread. Sorry for my I gorance but who's FAZ?
Next time, direct her to the drive-thru.
Don't worry. We know you are an EU fanatic and don't understand that during negotiations, parties start far apart and then move closer.
That is frightening reading. Appalling level of ignorance on display from May, Davis and co
worth seeing - scroll up for whole thread. To note: not saying this is right/accurate, but is an interesting tale
Don't apologise. Thank you. So many in UK burying heads in sand or blindly following May's vacuous platitudes.
A very interesting read!
many thanks to FAZ & you. I assume @DavidDavisMP is equally fulsome in praise of this example of hard won civil liberties?
thank you for the long thread! I'll go buy the paper because of it.
Presumably Juncker's account has been verified?
The frustration here is may is not representing the broad views of the British people IMO. It's a right wing 20% she's representing
read this thread on May
Fabulous. Thanks for the posts. Worrying but not surprising...
seems like May has been thinking like a certain President who recently just realized "This is more work than I thought."
Just read through whole thread... 🙈🙉🙊 2 years will not be nearly long enough to sort out #Brexit mess 😞
Brilliant thread, thx. What struck me is 3rd state realisation that we will not only b below N and CH but also TR. We'll be 3rd world nation
That was obvious, Brexit was going mean no more free movement and then free trade deals. Both would mean no internal market and Customs unio
I hadn't realise TR was in CU, that was my surprise.
Thanks. Very interesting. We are governed by molluscs.
Thank you for the complete report of the events. Astonishing
This horror story needs shouting from the rooftops. GE increasingly sidelining Brexit as main issue by May and Lab but UK future hangs on it
It's like watching a slow-motion car crash. Why are May et al so poorly informed, or is it tactics for crash & burn of A50talks? If so, why?
Great work Jeremy at last some light on the disaster of Mays Brexit
vis FAZ string - EU transparency principles in essence should ensure negotiations are public whether or not UK Gov. seeks this
BUT both sides agreed to make it private until stuff is agreed off.
some light reading for you pal!
😱😱😱 this
Holy shit this is bad (but "her guests reminded her that the EU is not a golf club" made me lol)
I used to buy the Economist each week but no longer as the content became biased, predictable & anti British. What a shame.
read the full thread mate, unbelievable, genuinely unbelievable
Thanks for taking the time. These are our 'leaders' - how terrifying.
Is this the same Juncker who said of the Greek crisis: "When it gets serious you have to lie"
Top thread. Deeply worrying.
Thank you, fascinating and frightening
Oh, to be a fly-on-the-wall when No.10 read this . . . ! 😎
Equal treatment. PM will try find something embrassing about EU. I need watch more Yes minster.
This thread gets worse and worse, but you can't stop reading.
Yr source is aware that we are not all mad in UK? We could end up as pariahs on par with apartheid regime with our neighbours
thank you. now maybe report on the realities as seen outside the wesminster/Brussels bubble.?
In a hashtag: #DenseAndDeluded
I'm reading this as juncker being power hungry. He's taking his ball back as he doesn't like what May is saying. Awful man.
get your head around this
Many thanks ❤
thank you. TM and Brexit dept out of their depth. Face palm.
Thanks for sharing. Long held suspicions confirmed - we are being lead by fools.
Thank you
People who retweet entire threads 🙄
Too bad you guys #surrendered all your #Arms (...about the only way the #BrusselsMafia lets anyone leave - 'they only understand strength.')
Useful thread - thank you
This is astonishing
Thanks for this insight
Good thread!
thanks Jeremy
thx for the write up! Nice work & extremely interesting on so many levels. EXACTLY as the remainer-camp warned pre ref.
Our PM is either an imbecile or she wants the hardest possible Brexit blaming an intransigent EU with the support of a friendly media.
I'm not sure which is the truth here tbh.
It's all part of the game ! Juncker is the Boris equivalent of the commission.
Thank you for doing it. Any chance the @TheEconomist will publish the full translation?
Is all this information about Mays meeting accurate or just fantasy writing? How can a private, sensitive meeting be reported in detail ?
No apology needed. Learn more here than the wonderful #BBCbias Thank you!
TY for this thread. Pity it takes a journalist based mainly in Berlin to provide this essential reporting on Brexit.
Was there German, French or British sparkling wine being served at the dinner?
Absolutely essential that a referendum on May's deal takes place. Scrutiny will be non existent in a Parliament with a 100 seat Tory maj.
Thanks so much for posting that eye-opening & shocking May/Junker dinner, very scary & I'll be widely spreading! #brexitshambles
Reported from an eu leak to a German newspaper and paints the uk in a poor light - who knew??
Third hand and a few thousand miles away, would not stand up in a court. If you're going to be a gossip columnist then work for OK Magazine.
Thanks to you and FAZ for sharing this info. Essential (if depressing) reading.
This is turning into Germany versus the U.K. with Junker the messenger boy
I think you'll find this is a list of @JunckerEU illusions not the other way round. How much wine has he had before he wrote this article?!!
Good negotiator: I say black, you say white. We end up with grey. Most people on here: I say black , you say white, I say OK white it is.😂
I can sense the satisfaction in your own country's discomfort in that thread
Great piece of work Jeremy, thanks 4 the translation. We've always believed,{still do}, May 2 B a front for this..
A Nice Business To Do People With (The Atlantic Bridge)
In 1997, Liam Fox founded a Think Tank called Atlantic Bridge under the patronage of Margaret Thatcher Past directors, or “Advisory Council” members of Atlantic Bridge included Michael Gove, George Osborne, William Hague, Boris Johnson, Norman Tebbit, William Hague, Malcom Rifkind and Chris Grayling. If you wanted to cast a net over this lot, they…
dangerousglobe.com
"Disastrous" wrong word as it implies it changed outcomes negatively. The FAZ reveals the simple truth that a deal is un-negotiable.
thank you. This is horrifying. What terrifies me is the apathy of most people I know who believe what May says.
Brilliant thread. And to think she will almost certainly still be voted in with a large majority. UK is an absolute bloody mess right now.
Bullying
Coercive
Antidemocratic < @JunckerEU unelected
It's an imperial EU Empire.
We've seen the expansion now we see the economic warfare
Amazing thanks
Thanks for writing it up
Thank you for the long thread!
Thank you for bringing this to our attention. This is nothing short of sensational. 'Safe and stable' my arse!
Thank you for this thread, as disturbing as it is. Truly disturbing and astonishing what our nations are going through. Truly.
Very informative thread!!!
Excellent thread. Thank you.
I think general election is because Tories can't hide brexit negotiating details from public & maybe because a dozen Tory MPs facing arrest.
Thank you for the long thread. Very informative
This demonstrates #NaiveAndArrogant not #StrongAndStable. Confirms my thoughts that the current gov have a lack of understanding re: EU.
thx very much for that thread!
Thanks Jeremy, really useful viewpoint (I don't speak German).
Fantastic analysis of what is transpiring . Thank you for informing the masses (those of us who want to know the truth). #BrexitBallsup
TY!
It makes very clear that HMG wants a hard #Brexit
"No deal is better than a bad deal", apparantly only full access for free would be ok
Interesting leak - proves EU still suffers delusions of it's own importance. They still don't get it! We are out and don't owe a penny.
It as worth every minute of my time and I would urge others to read it also.
No apology needed. Thanks for taking the time to do this!
In case no one has put all this in a moment yet, here:
⚡️ “May's horrifying Brexit delusion” by @RedBristolGreen
May's horrifying Brexit delusion
The Economist's Jeremy Cliffe lays out just how deluded Theresa May is about Brexit in a damning series of tweets.
twitter.com
Well that has scared the living crap out of me!
thank you. It was a very good thread.
Awesome thread. So glad you've been able to report this. Too many in Downing St & UK ignorant of the reality of #brexit
Long threads are fine when they tell us important things. This one does exactly that. Thank you!
(No comment)
Thanks to you for putting it together 👍
Have to say that's a splendid piece of writing/translation-great but grim reading. Chapeau!!
(No comment)
Thanks. A rare insight into the realities.
No apology needed: thank you for the long thread.
Thread simply underlines why we are leaving EU.
* Very sobering * Maybe if you have time, write out the lot & re-tweet attached as an image *
We are well and truly f***ed with May and her incompetent, smug, self deluded cronies in charge of these complex life changing negotiations.
Which is an important slant/perspective on the EU leaked story.
Jeremy. u+the economist have pitched ur tent in the EUs camp. This whole series of drivel tweets are1 sided rubbish. u lost! get over it.
Interesting thread ⬆️ on #BREXIT
Thank you. Scary but needed to come out.
hank you - so important to see this being covered. Secondly, can you add a link to the FAZ article?
Thanks for this, a useful if terrifying thread
Propoganda
Excellent thread ...Looks like Theresa May is out of her depth ...
May's own Coalition of Chaotic delusion
Thank you
Mega fail des anglais lol...
Ca fait dur
Bullying
Coercive
Antidemocratic < @JunckerEU unelected
It's an imperial EU Empire.
We've seen the expansion now we see the economic warfare
Happy with that - let's just walk away. Short term pain perhaps - long term gain definite. Who wants to be in an EU club that acts like that
Way to go the a berlin propaganda machine.
Impressive thread...thanks for sharing, @JeremyCliffe
Jeremy - thanks for the long thread. It is vital we know what's going on really scary that May/Davis are so utterly clueless.
Absolutely no need to apologise
All just proof that the EU is the problem. So many conditions on everything, so it's hardly a proponent of free trade or cooperation is it
They don't really want free trade, if that was all they wanted it'd be easy.
Let's hope Marine defies the odds and the EU collapses, bilateral treaties or a loose EFTA would be a lot better than this abortion
Thank you and @faznet!
Thanks for the thread. Really informative
I think the EU are misunderstanding the rules. Not May.
Junker won't last the negotiations.
Is everyone forgetting that in Cameron govt banned the civil service from actually working on Brexit at all?
PM’s chief mandarin stands accused of making no preparations to ready UK for a Brexit
BRITAIN’S top civil servant is under pressure to reveal if the Government is making any plans for Brexit as polls show the referendum is on a knife edge.
express.co.uk
Much appreciated
it's called transparency, it's a common thing in democracies
European citizens have the right to know the details of the negotiations, disMay wants secrecy. Transparency is democracy.
Where was the transparency with TTIP or EUs autid book ????
I am living and working in France watching a car crash. Pawns in May's parallel universe 😥😥
Tories aren't democratic. #oxymoron
You're an idiot
let's just stay in, then. It's so much hassle - who can be bothered? Easier to just go along with it, isn't it.
Your right !!!
Its alot easier to going along with rape then fight the criminal off!!
Or the version that the European Commission wants people to think, thus manufacturing political pressure on U.K. Government
Other way about, read through statements from beginning, insults, threats, and laying down law to eu from England ill mannered, unhelpful.
Or the EU just showing the transparency that they promised. They know May has UK press, Sky,BBC in her pocket
EU and transparency aren't things that typically go together.
if mi6 are doing there job, i expect may knows all about the eu strategy before they do
EU trying to blackmail the U.K. They will find Britain won't be bullied despite liberal wankers living here
I don't understand all the fuss. We are England! We don't need em, we don't need see business innit bro
We are Britain not England and it's not a case of needing them. We voted to leave and the GE will either reinforce that or change it.
Why don't we have another ref then?
Tory party's back door ref?
Funny they have been looking for years and yet not many trade deals done with EU
leaks depend on animosity levels. Partially at least. This leak seems to come *after* "EU lining up against" from May...
:D Quod erat demonstrandum
Leak, or be revealed by EU politicians in domestic interest?
The EU has a duty of transparency.
They have no interest in keeping this locked up. Thus everyone will be able to see the pain it'll cause.
I had to do a lot of digging when TTIP was going thru. That was not transparent. And the audit books are they transparent?
Negotiations: trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/press/i…
Audit Report: eca.europa.eu/en/Pages/Audit…
Ty. Gonna dive in after work.
Not sure why people find using a search engine so difficult these days. Took me less than 10 minutes...
And i just said ty for the audit info.
I could say the same to people about muslim rape!! But thats completely off topic. Have a nice day
so enlightening. Common sense will prevail.
Have you heard boris and garage? May bringing up rear? What a a carry on and there are millions of lives at stake.
This feels like an election tampering tactic via the back door from the EU
Undoubtedly challenges ahead but remember who we're dealing with here: “When it becomes serious, you have to lie.” Jean- Claude Juncker
This isn't a great look for the EU going forward is it? Rapid leaking of leader talks. Imagine how Beijing views this approach.
Not a great look for us either. Confirming suspicions of many: that May, Davis, et al are inept, esp for the hugely complex task at hand.
I'm taking with pinch of salt. Just like swiss cheese Times scoop on TTIP revival. Anon sources. Obv not smooth but serves agenda perfectly
Maybe in the UK. Most of EU will like the tough game with all tricks. Beijing knows how the game works.
So during stalled trade talks. Xi Junker have dinner, Junker aides leak disparaging details about Xi. You say China respects the hustle?
No, but China probably understands, that Junker wouldn't go that route with them. Or did he at any time?
Why would Beijing know that? German officials leaked embarrass details from the Trump Merkel meeting. A pattern emerges
What did they leak? And I am quite sure he knows that. Don't really get what kind of game May expects here.
thank goodness, because she's telling us nothing.
Well.....the one-sided #EU propaganda is being leaked. Is @theresa_may bothered? I doubt it. Economists? In meltdown by the look. #Brexit
Wow, no words... /o\ thanks for this thread.
if she only listened to the civil servants and others who could brief her, there's no lack of experts - of what again ?!
indeed, the misconception that they are rational. We voted to leave & they're making it so hard that we can't...nice.
Or she's doing it on purpose, playing to the Mail & Express crowd, giving herself an excuse to walk away, perhaps sooner than 2 years time.
Clearly you are
Theresa in wonderland.
None of this is a surprise, so many people in Britain these days seem to have lost touch with reality.
Do you mean the same misconceptions sold by BoJo, Stuart, Give... Which were condemned as such only for experts to be dissed?
read this thread. #brexitshambles UK cannot have Torys negotiating, disastrous #JC4PM
I dont believe labour will negotiate. Just roll over and wee a lil
There must've been a moment over dinner when she realised ''F*ck! How am I going to sell this when I get back?" Brexit! x3 doesn't wash here
I would say that is the heart of the matter. That is why the UK leaving. They never understood the EU.
At no stage did these idiots war game the negotiations and put themselves in the EU's shoes. If they had they would know what was coming.
She doesn't want brexit - she was a remainer . None of the cabinet or the civil service want it either . I think she'll
Replace brexit MPs with remainders - that's already happening - & deliver a fake brexit
Probably wise to start referring to the EU28 instead (including Scotland, that is)
Juncker: 'Brexit cannot be a success'. Question: if the EU is so marvellous, why do they need to punish the UK for leaving?
I don't think it's a threat, just a statement of what he sees as fact. We will lose membership benefits. As far as I see that = worse off
I agree. I don't think it's a threat, either
More, his intention to make an example of the UK
Hence my question
The German word he used (kann) means not possible in sense that brexit won't be a success as UK economy is incapable of being so without EU
He doesn't need to make an example, the fact that the UK is not capable of being better off outside EU will be self evident.
I love reading unknowable predictions that cannot be disproved by anonymous twitter 'experts' breathlessly regurgitating a partisan line
Not my problem u can't correctly translate the German. You are doomed to knowing less than the opposition so failure is guaranteed.
Now that talks collapsing has become an almost certainty, question is who walks away from the table first?
if Britain crashes out-what's the immediate, mid term & long term effects?
UK is fucked, UK is fucked, UK is fucked, you're welcome
Firstly 'crashes out' is hysterical over-reaction. We would benefit under WTO terms.
How?
WTO increases the cost of all imports and exports?
So we now know for a FACT the cost of living will go up!
They sell us more than we sell them - therefore they pay us tarrifs to export to us. Our tarrifs would be same as EU anyway
Don't we have to apply to join WTO? We're not a member now. Other WTO members can impose conditions too.. such as Argentina.
Also isn't WTO more focused on goods than services? Since we're around 70% service export economy it would be pretty debilitating
There is no Single Market in services.
We are already (founding) members. WTO Chief has said he foresees no difficulty in us trading under WTO terms - we already do with non-EU
We're a member as part of the EU. We can apply to join as the UK. It's democratic, decisions made by member governments, not the chief.
My point being, it could be fine. But the devil's in the detail. It's folly to underplay the complexities or possible downfalls.
In the poo to all three imo
it well known that she doesn't listen
Half of Ministers & most senior journalists/presenters blundering thru without reading EU Council's negotiation guidelines
😂😂😂😂😂😂
You might reverse this and say UK message not getting through but you assume that the UK must do what the EU wants it to do
UK government haven't been listening from the start. Many are just relying on the puerile "We are British, we are special" argument.
It's up to the British voter to avert a Millenium disaster.... #brexit
What a mess
#brexshit
Well, they will if they co-ordinate them in the German press.
it points to dangerous laziness on our side.
Goes back to original sin of Tories leaving EPP - cut them off from the informal contacts and intelligence that are crucial in EU context
Coupled with UK seeing politics as "winner takes all" not important that however hard the talks, at the end everyone needs to have a win
Through their tory skulls?
because nobody wants to hear those messages. We were told that before - Government just will not hear bad Brexit news from EU
Brexiteers don't trust any but their own sources. Cut out advise from civil service, business. Echo-chamber government.
As i read through the report I am getting more concerned that this has more to do with Germany than it does with EU. Hard Brexit it is then
Nor from the UK's Civil Service, praised in Gutschker's article, 2nd para: has produced fair, knowledgeable dossiers on many Brexit issues.
Who do they think is not passing on the message? Or is it just not being heard.
26 is your strongest point - it's a tactical move - yet you still seem to fall for that tactic and take every word at face value!
Isn't there a chance you've suspended your judgement about this highly partisan account because it reflects back what you want to hear?
obviously comms only ever flow one way from EU to supplicant. Maybe EU is the deluded party? Worth considering?
The important message is #EU is frightened that their Utopian vision of unelected officials living in luxury from the work of UK is ending
A point that could also be made in reverse. No deal hurts Europe as well as the U.K. Though admittedly not as much.
It's pretty much in line with the media efforts they have used thus far
trying to undermine her election. They expected to negotiate with weak PM?
How does May winning by a smaller margin make her weaker in 2 years of negotiation in a 5 year term?
She needs no help in undermining her election...
do you think she's a strong pm? Less charisma than corbyn, an yet we're told he's unelectable
we are being led by buffoons, protected by a rabid press. We are doomed.
Isn't the problem going to be the Brexiteer hardliners will see this as a fight and will just say 'bring it on' and accept the consequences?
Yes, they will try to spin a populist resentment line, hence the EU27 'ganging up against us'. This was always going to be the approach.
Im a hard liner. I wont blame the EU27. Just the commission.
some points Juncker/Merkel object to are robust correct negotiating positions. Pay €55bn just to sit at the table?
yes, because this is what UK owes to the budget UK has been and will be taking money from, too
€55bn. That's more than the next 2 years worth buddy. No can do.
because, the projects will not be finished by 2019, they will be financed and finished long after 2019, be serious, buddy
Nothing to do with us. Unlucky.
but some of those projects are with the UK companies/schools/universities, don't you get it? you're that thick
So what. Irrelevant. You are frustrated.
No FTA with EU then. Juncker's said this wd be the consequence, acc to the article.
Oh well.
It's just not worth €55bn. Business case doesnt add up. Cheaper to pay the tariffs for the U.K. exporters for years.
Could lead to further blowback at WTO level: UK would become a country that doesn't honour its contractual commitments, uh oh...
So if you're right there'll be no trade deal if EU insist on payment as precondition. What will it mean if May agrees to pay something?
2016 UK exports to EU = £240bil.
Supose WTO tariffs are average 5% increase, that = £12bil.
It makes perfect sense to pay £55 for FTA
You forget the money coming back to us from the imports....
That's how you negotiate. Frustrating isn't it?
Their point is that we are signed up to projects that run for much longer than two years. That includes not fully funded pension pots.
Regardless that we are a net contributor and always have been. Would you continue paying a mortgage yearsafter you left the property?Fuck no
Also known as Mafia Tactics
No. Pay your debts before you start asking for favours from ppl whose own economies you are threatening with your infantile fantasies.
A lot of the misunderstandings brought about by the EU's refusal to discuss prior to Article 50
like paying for a car not knowing if it's a Kia or a Porsche. Oh look....it's a SEAT.
but it's normal, if you break a contract early, for there to be a penalty clause
None written the contract. It's whatever you can negotiate.
you've read the agreement?
We havent broken a single contract with the EU. They have tho. By not inviting us to summits.WE ARE A FULL MEMBER...
a full member who has triggered A50
Could it turn the election?
anything COULD turn an election. A week is a lifetime in politics, remember.
No. The majority of British voters won't hear, care, believe implications. The majority want to believe the strong Global Britain fantasy.
no the sheeple will believe the Tory unicorn stories, supported by the Mail, Express and Scum
Of course not, media will either not mention this or play it down.
No, because it's not been printed in English! Think the EU are now so sick of it, they don't care...
The final para said as much: communicating EU concerns this openly is part of a strategy of trying to get Brits to see sense in time.
Or trying to project fear. You know the kind of tactics corrupt politics and dictatorships use
Leak? If correct then the Commission made a huge tactical error.
Not worried at all as it's FAKE NEWS BY A PATHETIC LYING TWAT
Reprising Mottram: "We're f**ked, completely f**ked, its (Brexit) been the biggest cock-up ever."
Thanks for a great round-up of the leak - really got it across just how amazingly difficult/impossible this process is going to be
It's a set-up. What is @theresa_may's account of the meeting.
looks like pretty normal for first foray in complex negotiations from my experience.
To o . X egg 6lwlakldp
Issue of course being that electorate don't give a monkeys & will vote her back in with a larger majority. Anti-EU rhetoric has worked.
the leak helps Theresa? Makes it more "true" that tough negotiating is needed
not very smart. Hurts them everywhere in Europe. Proves them power sick. @Nigel_Farage @theresa_may
My guess is that they felt that May concealing the ongoing catastrophe of her own incompetence is also "highly tactical". And thank God.
in the lack of a open unbiased press only way we are going to get anything near the truth. May wants secrets
No, it just highlights why we unfortunately need to leave what the 'EEC' has become
Not at all, especially if LePen wins
Do you know how negotiations work, Jeremy? 🙄
You might argue the Commission would like to influence the outcome of the GE
Please note that if you pull the trigger, on the gun you have inserted in your ear, it will have catastrophic consequences for the UK.
Eurocrats may be trying to give Brits a chance. May has Trump's problem: doesn't understand confession precedes redemption.
We still have to carry on no matter how bad it will or won't be.... perhaps many will be leaving the UK for Europe for the better life
through all this you are taking a "leak" from 1 side of the argument as absolute truth, sounds very much like this is what you want to hear
Clearly a meaningless negotiating tactic, and a cheap one at that.
Some think that her plan is to crash out. From this report, I think they are right
I think so too. Surely she can't be really that stupid. It will all be the fault of the EU and the Brexiteers will believe her.
Exactly. Scapegoats again for UK government ineptitude
Terrifies me to think of a future with the Tories
the future looks bleak with the Tories, they haven't a clue what they are doing ?
I've been thinking that for a while. The plan is to make enemies of our closest neighbours & allies & our biggest trading partner. Madness.
Not if you want a tax haven
Small government, and few public services
So be it. No deal, then. Brits will brush themselves off and get on with it; won't side with EU seen as tyrannical
Then we'll have no trade deals, and no fish stocks. Sounds like a plan.
And we fish in theirs. We rely on exporting a lot of our fish to the EU. Just pop it in a lorry and drive it to Spain. That's off the cards
Sorry, how do we replace our shellfish export market? That's going to hit my community hard. Plus no money from EU boats landing here. 1/2
2/2 And one of main reasons we still have reasonable fish stocks, is because EU fishing quotas were working well. That's fucked too.
If we're not trading within the EU, our shellfish isn't going to Spain is it?
OK, please do tell me where we find another lucrative market for our shellfish in Europe, but not the EU. One that needs no paperwork.
If we can't ship shellfish to Spain, what do you suggest we do with it? Stop fishing for it?
We import 69% of what we consume predominantly from Europe and we export a mere 42%.
Juncker needs to have a word with himself, deluded
What we going to threaten them with? Shooting ourselves in the foot by walking away without a deal if they don't do what we want? Yeah right
27 vetos is an example of the national sovereignty that the Leave campaign claimed the EU doesn't allow. Deals can't be forced on anyone.
So will the EU. Very harsh.
Making empty threats won't get the UK anywhere.
It isn't a threat, just a statement of fact.
No, it was a threat, and that is a fact.
No. Just a fact.
Nope, just an empty threat.
Not at all. Reflects a general feelling amongst r27.
No deal is the best idea.
NO DEAL BETTER THAN A BAD DEAL
Is it a strong and stable deal? #repeatingsoundbites
My bet: 1. Collapse of EU talks. 2. Boris challenges May for leadership and wins. 3. He concedes an EU fudge with free movement and trade.
But .. but .. but ... what about the 'bus' money they promised for the NHS?
Oh silly me, I forgot, it'll be VHS by then
Not Boris he is Mad
So all this information is coming from a " source" on the commission side who have already shown to act like kids since we voted to leave.
this seems to be deliberate Tory policy...ie big tory tantrum & stamping out
In time...tick tock...
#GE2017
Then we walk & fuck the EU, we will survive with out them causing shit. Introduce WTO tariffs & see who whines like bitches first!
Us probably, given there'd be a 40% tariff on some types of good coming into the country.
Doubt that very much once individual trade deals are brought in. One thing I love reading on twitter is that ppl think the gov are stupid!
Individual trade deals with who?
Most imports will be within the 10% range. Then the EU can whine at the disparity of the trade deficit & watch the UK get stuff elsewhere
Things like meat and wine will be between 32% and 40% under WTO rules. This also applies to what we export too.
Hence the "no deal" nonsense, and the GE which when taken together provide 5yrs to change UK society completely
Eh, we voted FOR hard Brexit, mate. All they ever said was "you wont be able to access the open market if we leave" We know. Bye.
Read through this full thread this morning and it is quite frankly shocking. Bunch of muppets!
(No comment)
Harsh realities only occur if eu want them
No, the brexiters voted for harsh realities, they just don't realise it yet.
When negotiating with the clueless and arrogant, you can either take what you want or sacrifice everything for them. Which would you do?
Harsh realities occur when leaders have no clue what the hell they're doing. May is clearly in the worst position possible, and doesn't know
The EU position has been clear from day 1. Brexit means Brexit - you leave the Single Market & Customs Union you have third country status.
The UK seems to want the harsh realities just to keep the 70+ Hard Brexit Toy MPs happy in Parliament.
Fuck Juncker he's just a silly old man
yes we are much better with an insane god bothering halfwit who cackles when she goes of script and plans on shutting schools down
quite possibly the worst pm in history ,quite clearly insane, but we got our cunt tree back innit?
I'm wide awake and terrified 😭
For one sector alone - aviation - this would be a wrecking ball. Death of an industry. #brexitshambles #brexit
What we need is a strong & stable regulatory black hole for industrial sectors like aviation and pharmaceuticals?
And it is obvious that he wants it to collapse as the only way to keep us in. Why does anyone want to be in such a corrupt organisation?
I wouldn't bet on Leave supporters waking up to their own fallacies ever
Wasnt Juncker pissed at the time?
I have been thinking for some time that we will get to this point quicker than the time period post-Article 50.
What about EU waking up to harsher realities for them?
Tariffs will affect just 16% of their exports, whereas they will affect 44% of the UK's exports. They know this, even if brexiters don't.
You only have to look at Greece. EU will be quite happy to suffer a bit of pain to make an example of the UK.
EU seems to have misunderstood British resolve. An attempt to bully, belittle and intimidate us won't elicit the response they are hoping.
You seem to have misunderstood their intentions.
What might they be then?
That thread is their commenting on May, not them belittling the British. Do you honestly think their observations are pure malice?
Curious, I thought it was more one sided propaganda & posturing looking to demean opposition. You mean it is fully impartial and accurate?
The report seems accurate. Beyond that, I don’t believe that any one nation breeds better people than another. That’s insane.
I think you are confused about point I was making. Biased leaked report supporting ongoing bullying approach will not give desired outcome.
It's not bullying to point out that by freely choosing to leave the EU then the UK can no longer use the facilities on same terms as members
We won't be paying the subs of members either ....
We've pumped in £200bn. They've had more than their fair share out of us.
Hint: there’s no such thing as a “British Resolve”. I’m all for a bit of national pride, but let’s be honest here.
If there were some sort of British supergene that some of our population has, do you think the Tory government all have it?
Do you honestly think May has at her disposal the best negotiating team in all of Europe ready to untangle our EU membership?
And if she does, do you think a two-month delay on Brexit negotiations while she fortifies her position in Westminster is a good tactic?
It’s not that people who don’t believe in Brexit are saboteurs, it’s just that we thought it was a shit idea in the first place.
So don’t blame us for not being filled with British resolve when we’re not the idiots who threw us down this disastrous path.
So you are one of the Remainers happy to shout I told you so at every opportunity and eager to be proved right no matter what the source?
I want to be proved wrong, but I don’t believe it’s possible in this instance. It’s the leavers’ job to prove me wrong and I hope they do.
I will definitely be saying “We warned you this would happen” at every step of the way, though. Apologies in advance. :)
The EU were hoping to deal with adults. It is clear that May and Davis are totally out of their depth.
I think the EU are trying to get the UK side face the reality of Brexit.
as are half the UK.
Jared I think it is now more than half
We know their intentions. Which is why we need to Leave!
c’est peut-être un peu tard.
May is threatening to not pay admin costs of the EU. If we don't pay then the EU walks away from a trade deal. Not bullying - just fact
Well said. We aren't Greece.
If it comes to hard Brexit , we must fight back ,suffer any costs, pull together as in 1940.
It isnt 1940. The world has moved on.
Great. And then what? Enjoy our isolationism, xenophobic bigots in leadership and international pariah status?
Yeah. Let's have a decade of rationing and misery like the '40s for no reason. We can bring back gramophones and polio while we're at it.
Can anyone in their right mind listen to the Drunk Alcoholic Junkers
He is obviously delusional
Drink does that to you
Trouble is even if we did wake up tomorrow and regret whole thing, we'd need agreement of ALL 27 EU govts to put a stop to it. No guarantee.
Junker trying to twist arms?
Time to exit now, stop talking to him and set up deals ALZl around the World.
Utterly ridiculous!Talks haven't even started yet.All #EU posturing and meaningless tosh. A deal will be done..because both sides need it.
This is just sad.
Like a cat laying out its catch of shrews. No one much cares in the house.
You will see the EU crumble without the cash it clearly needs. Economist is worse than the daily mirror for biased gutter journalism
20 billion is nothing for eu member state. Dream on.
I agree....utter trash from journalists wearing their faded "I love the Soviet union" t-shirts.....
I have said it before & I will say it again brexit is madness. Eu should not just sit tight and let brexit fever delirium run its course.
Because it thwarts the "death of a thousand cuts" planned by the opposition to exiting.
The whole #Brexit phenomenon is a delusion: 'taking back control' by losing influence in an increasingly interdependent world. Madness.
Spot on comment about #Brexit.
Challenge is to explain that to people brainwashed by the #BrexiteerBenefiteers
What a #Brexitshambles
powerglobal.us/2016/11/24/if-… Just walk no use playing in the EU political sandpit, just piss and walk
IF BRITANNIA HAD BALLS SHE WOULD JUST GIVE EU NOTICE & WALK: 20Billion EURO a YEAR says EU WILL CUT A DEAL BECAUSE THEY CAN’T AFFORD NOT TO.
Brexit walk UK Leave EU
powerglobal.us
The myth that a bigger majority "strengthens her hand" in Brexit talk absolutely ridiculous.
They don't give 2 hoots about majority size.
Some of whom seem to be capable of following this thread, although they think it's all lies of course 😁 . Interesting , thanks.
How can she win? Every moans she was not elected so now? wants an election moan! She is fighting our corner vs Eu but so many back slabers
Maybe it's because we'd rather not be represented in the most important negotiations since WWII by a delusional incompetent?
Great thread thank you.
A big majority will make no difference to EU when it comes to negotiations. May is utterly deluded to think otherwise
Consolidating Tory party power. But what for? If cost is impoverishment and division of Britain. A tragic reincarnation of divide and rule.
What for?
To rebuild Britain in their own image once Brexit has destroyed it and we'll accept the "necessary austerity" required. 😞
Your answer is to stay in corrupt #EU and do what this shower below want
Not for me
I love this country, unlike the crazy Liberal Lefties
We're not paying them €55bn. It's Germany on the hook for that and they don't like it up 'em. Tough.
Yes we are but it'll cost us 100s of times more in long run
Yes, let's default on one deal whilst trying to strike another. That will really work in our favour.
When Scotland becomes independent, can we just leave the debt with you then?
I expect that's different because.... reasons?
You think that not settling our debts is going to endear us to anyone? I'm not talking just EU here.
No legal agreement. No debts. Not a popularity contest.
The money will be recovered through tariffs. And it should be a popularity contest. Negotiations tend to work best when hostility minimised
Ahh, the 'fuck you, I'm not paying what I said I would' approach. Certain to endear the UK to the whole world, and get us good deals.
lol yea just right, of course it'll all be worth while having no close market to buy/sell into, maybe Russia?
FUNNY THAT AS SHE SERIOUSLY MODERATED HER TONE YESTERDAY.
Merkel said clearly "not UK Govt" when referencing "illusions"..that completely undermines what you've said re: Juncker ringing Merkel
We are under no illusion, we are leaving.
more like DELUSIONS
#NoMayInJune
Not bad, but I think "delusions" was the word she was after.
The Leader of the Free World doing her job. Thank you, Chancellor Merkel! -dlj.
We Scots are not surprised at the arrogance of the tories, it's in their DNA.
"Er teilte ihr seine Einschätzung mit, dass May in einer anderen Galaxie lebe und sich lauter Illusionen mache." Fantastic, isn't it? :)
Not really, no. Not when it's subject matter as important as this.
EU-central has never treated UK any better than ppl treat their bank manager while they are in credit; have to get used to worm turning!
Junket tells Merkel may in another galaxy.
Very grateful for all that. Thanks, Jeremy.
ditto -- great series of tweets, Jeremy. "Crash & burn" Brexit looking more likely than ever.
The great British public will shortly give Government a “mandate" for this. Not least because Corbyn.
This is why even if the election was purely abt brexit under no circumstances do we want May leading brexit negotiations.
Where on earth would info like that come from
The FAS article's final para basically says it: it's a leak designed to wake up the UK, esp. its business leaders ("Wirtschaft").
Evidence ????
It's a FAZ news report. It will have been spoonfed to the German press. That's probably the most worrying bit. No comment from May.
As you can see from the reaction on this thread, it's had it's intended impact.
To be fair, the "best Brexit possible" could be that it's only a medium sized dumpster fire paid for by those who can least afford it. 🙈
It seems like this is made up, and certainly not a direct quote. What is your source for this?
A German newspaper! Hahahaha.
Gosh, only remainers would see this as anything but EU propaganda. UK is EU's biggest market, they will do/say anything to keep us. Wise up.
No, the UK is NOT the EU"s biggest market by a very long shot, but they are OUR biggest market. I suggest you actually research this
simply not true, we are not the EU's biggest market, we're not Germany's biggest market, the EU is ours
oh dear.
Talking of other galaxies, how about EU leaders like @KernChri who think their contributions.will stay the same after Brexit?
Delusion is not a one-way street, as anyone with any understanding of Austrian politics can tell you. How does he 'defend' the status quo?
How can anyone defend commentary from Junker. He is the deluded one. Thinks he has more power than he does.
As I'm sure Jeremy will point out, the alleged quotes confirm what Jeremy and his audience want to hear.
Good to see the EU being run and advised by Germany, punished for a democratic act, real progress and something to stay apart of clearly!
UK is just being reminded that you need to return the club property before leaving, and won't be able to use the facilities anymore.
The only punishment here is by the UK on itself, it's citizens elsewhere, and EU citizens here.
Yes correct it is very similar to an elitist golf club, good comparison
Sounds just like all the Brexiteers!
They may be right. It might be Corbyn he is dealing with
So we now know without peradventure that Juncker is Merkel's poodle. They think they are so clever in their derision of UK.
How do they know this - it was a private telephone call!
Interesting that Marr strangely asked her yest am if she was 'living in another galaxy'
Thats quite true!
Quelle surprise???
Why Merkel?
EU finally realising we are serious about leaving and won't pay a penny. Merkel panics as her contributions to EU will have to double!!
PM May has adopted exactly the correct Brexit negotiation stance.
That's why EU terrified o/losing world's 5th biggest economy
Merkel is the classic example of self-delusion!
May is clear-headed, cool, logical & un-moved by EU panicked bluster & threats
EU's enforcing its conditions in last 43 yrs is why EU not signed FTAs with
USA
China
Brazil
Indonsia
Russia
India
+97 more..
EU's 445mn people after Brexit will be only 5.7% of world population.
EU world trade share shrank EVERY YR since 2008
ONSStats
UK future is sound, based on its own major currency & fiscal policy: the reason why UK created more jobs 09-16 than EU27 total
After a hard night drinking, Junkers phoned Ex-Communist Merkel to plot how to Stick it to the UK in forthcoming negotiations is Truth
I'll be trading in my VW woof wagon then
The defacto unelected president of Europe?
Did he leave sober?
A very important question :)
PROVE IT
It rhymes with clucking bell
May's objective achieved.
this is vital info thank you. it goes to prove that #strongandstable is a lie #headlesschicken much more appropriate.
FAS article describes J. as 'deeply shocked' (tief schockiert) post-dinner. "10x sceptical' wording "never" heard before, acc. to his aides.
So you think we should hold on to Uncle Juncker's hand to protect us from the big bad world.
Stay in Berlin and remember who fucking died there so you could spout your drivel.
I hope he wasn't drunk :)
*ten times as pissy*
Junkers means he did not get his own way nor will he. Let the games begin
JCJ the man entirely responsible for Brexit was entirely sceptical it would ever happen.Needs to worry about how to replace Uk as benefactor
Bingo. Called Merkel. And all the Remain people say we Brits are obsessed with the Germans. Too fucking right we are.
Brits are obsessed with the Second World War and the Germans.
They kept trying to kill my dad.
They kept dropping bombs on my mum. Guess what? The war ended and my mum made friends with some of them. Ich auch, Deutschland ist schön.
Not an entirely serious reply. It's a big powerful country nearby with different values. Going to be friction. Awful food. Simply awful.
Different values? Like what?
My German colleagues think brits are disrespectful mavericks who don't do as they are told.
I tell them they need the full Australian experience. They are proper call it as it is.
Trade Dsal not worth €55bn. So let's drop all that he shall we? Will speed things up.
A hard Brexit wld mean all wsale banking leaves City. Banks pay more in tax than UK spends on defence (says @AP). How does one replace that?
trade deal or not is too complex for anyone to predict true cost, walking away from EU debt puts UK on back foot
What does this point mean?
You are a liar and you cannot prove anything you have written can you????
If you have evidence to support your claim you should produce it. What did happen at this dinner, then? You should spell it out.
they are not united after all.
What are these bills? In light of Art 125 of Lisbon Treaty. Member states are not liable for the commitments of other member states.
I can't believe that this shower of s@!t are claiming BREXIT can be a success, vote anything but Tory, we are being led over the cliff!!!!!!
Was any reference made I wonder to the #borisjohnson promise to repatriate £350m per week and spend it on the NHS ?
Holy... this needs to be in the MSM to show what the UK is in for with May. Are you seeing this @itvnews @Channel4News @BBCBreaking? Report.
writes for @TheEconomist, which is very "MS"
I'm aware, but the non economist, watching TV public needs informing. The country as a whole needs to know what's going on.
Thanks for putting this summary together. There's a lot of posturing going on but it does seem that May is somewhat deluded.
Cosa deve pagare Uk a UE?
1st, before ANY EU rigged bill is discussed, EU must explain how€2.3trillion was lost in 21 yrs un-audited accounts.
Ridiculous, that's no way to behave for the government of a civilised country.
This is the admission by @JunckerEU that there is no legal basis for Brexit bill and EU27 are engaged in naked blackmail. Sickening.
Yet unsurprising. They know full well what they're doing. It's extortion. They don't think they need us bcs of their God complex.
Except Moody's derating UK to something equiv to Idi Amin's Uganda, w devastating loss of trust
It is. Challenged by @DavidDavisMP, @JunckerEU could cite no legal basis for Brexit bill: simply demanded money with menaces.
We are discussing an article in yesterday's Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung of which this thread is a summary translation. That's the source.
Top of last column is where you'll find relevant exchange.
Basically @JunckerEU says, "No pay, no FTA", even though it is EU27 position that the two sets of talks are separate. Offers no legal basis.
How can you possibly read that from this? Beyond delusional ....... wake up.
It's very clear in the German.
Oh dear another Tory moron who can't face reality
at what point does a transaction stop being a negotiation and start being blackmail?
When it steps outside the legal framework of the Treaties in favour of demanding money with menaces?
Why? The EU have simply taken Theresa May at her word that Brexit means Brexit. Sadly inevitable. #BrexitShambles
Simply pointing to the admission by @JunckerEU that there's no legal basis for Brexit bill. And the threats he uses instead. Grubby.
Not blackmail at all. We agreed as a club to buy some stuff and share cost. We got the stuff, but want to leave before paying our share.
So why couldn't @JunckerEU point to the part of our agreement which said that? Which article, which clause? He couldn't, preferring threats.
I don't know, I wasn't there. Nor were you. So maybe he did. Either way, his point is absolutely valid. We made the same point to Scotland.
I am of course relying on FAZ article, which started this thread and simply pointing out what it reveals about EU money-grubbing approach.
It appears to be a well-sourced article and nobody doubts it was leaked out by @JunckerEU team.
What should the EU negotiators do? Roll over and yield to all our demands? They have interests too. And strength in unity. Unlike the UK.
Not for me to advise them. Simply pointing out to many Brits who attack @theresa_may what is driving her interlocutors. Not a pleasant bunch
We signed a Treaty and played by rules. Treaty allows us to leave. When we do so we get hissy-fits and extortion in response to common sense
Not to mention leaks and grandstanding. These are the tactics of an EU team worried about holding their side together.
Biggest worry of @JunckerEU is that national governments will sell Commission out in favour of a common sense deal. What this is all about.
Impossible. Either they all agree, or no deal. Individual nation deals don't happen, as Merkel had to explain seven times to Trump.
Didn't say that. I said they might agree to disagree with the Commission. Comes down to Merkel and (?) Macron. Sorry if not clear.
Possible, I guess.
How on earth did you get the opposite of what most people got from that.
It's very clear in the German, but even in the @JeremyCliffe summary @JunckerEU provides no legal answer to @DavidDavisMP - just threats.
answer to @DavidDavisMP is blatantly clear:want to delay the deal?,then you get no deal
In the article @DavidDavisMP doesn't suggest any delay. He points out there's no legal basis for Brexit bill. Gets threats from @JunckerEU
never mentions courts. He just says there is no legally enforceable basis for Brexit bill. @JunckerEU threatens no trade deal.
Interesting in all this that @JunckerEU never considers what's good for prosperity of EU people, only for EU institutions. Monster-state.
In the article @theresa_may offers to finalise deal on expats on 13 June. @JunckerEU says that far too quick. Who's the hostage-taker?
Of course @theresa_may offered to do this expat deal last year, ahead of Art50. EU refused. Who's the hostage-taker? Get the facts right.
Point out where in the article @JunckerEU states the legal basis for the Brexit bill, when effectively challenged by @DavidDavisMP to do so.
At best he offers some waffling analogy with the difference between a golf club and a family. Of course EU is neither. It is sui generis.
I understand that of course. Just pointing out we are dealing with people who are really only interested in money, not people's welfare.
We have spent decades subsidising these people and encouraging their delusions of super-power status. Understandably they're hooked on it.
But let's understand that and see that we owe them no more consideration than we do a heron-addicted burglar trying to break into our house.
No doubt we will pay them some money. But with due contempt. We pay for an extra year or two and then we're free for next century or two.
Do you have Amy idea how that sounds, coming from the party of ATOS, the bedroom tax, bereaved benefit cuts, two child cap and rape clause?
Wrong thread.
I think May is trying to do the extorting.
agreed. Farage shouldn't get his eu pension.
No, this is a wake-up call to brexiteers. Hard, cold Really.
Yes. We need have no delusions now that we are dealing with people who have any regard for law or the prosperity of the people.
Are you living in the same galaxy as Theresa May?
If you haven't read the FAZ article you'll find it at the top of the last column.
I've read it. Confirms Brexit is a monumental disaster.
I thought the EU position was divorce first... FTA later. Now FTA linked to divorce settlement? Make up your mind Junker
The reverse is also the case, if they want any money, there'd better be one very good trade deal.
They don't need the money. Or the trade deal. All they need is for it to be apparent that leaving sucks. Britain is beyond snookered ...
They need both, otherwise they wouldn't show they care.
Of course they need both, without the money they have a massive whole and Germany does not want to pay up.
Without trade deal eu will suffer more as they sell more to us than we do to them. And we will have trade deals with other countries 2 help
Yeah and to the fact that eu is on the edge of disintegration, if it survives the decade I will be surprised
There seems to be some odd conceipt in uk that its only place EU trades with. 27 versus 1. Simple maths. Prefer to have us but DONT need us
That's true, but the point is the effect is greater on them because of the value, without a deal we will buy stuff from other cheaper places
I would actually say strange perception is that the eu is the only place we can trade with, the fact is we trade more with rest of the world
if you believe that they need nothing; worker rights, money, or trade, then you're deluded.
they only want the UK for its money .....nothing more nothing less , who will fill the hole?
Reasonable.
Not going to happen. You're in the SM or out of it
So the EU has no external trade deals?
Yes and have you seen how long it's taken to do a deal with Canada. UK will take yrs to get non EU deals
It did, because the EU doesn't do trade deals, and didn't do that much with Canada. I'm they export a lot to us.
What all this shows is that @theresa_may's intellect is severely limited and she's in way over her head. Her slyness & conniving will flop.
You are lying
I look forward to the UK not paying the bills and getting CCC credit ratings. That will teach the EU.
As disputes over bills with the EU are not Bond issued Government debt it has no effect on credit rating at all as you should know.
Sure, walk away and see what happens. You will have a queue of countries ready to sign deals with a rogue unreliable partner.
The queue of countries is already there. Have you not been paying attention? New Zealand,Australia,Canada,India and of course USA ...
All of them with requirements on visas, no state aid, access to NHS, etc that will clash with your enormous need for "sovereignty". Enjoy!
It won't teach them anything. UK economy will suffer more than theirs.
That is not clear. Some of these items we are being charged for are not valid. Some are. Needs more negotiation
Sounds like Juncker agrees there is nothing in the treaties to force the UK to pay. No trade deal = no £
That's EU opening position on #BREXIT. See what they say after companies whose trade is threatened have quiet words post their elections
If May gets a decent majority in new HofC she'll be in stronger position. I just hope her nerve holds.
Yes, and that mandate will prove to be a big noose around our neck in the future, when leavers realise what they have done! Wait and watch.
Regained our sovereignty, that's what #BREXIT will have done on 29th March 2019!
The UK has completely lost control of our own trading relations, soon we will have WTO rules forced upon us, and tariffs on our exports.
The EU will come second
Brexit must deliver £350m pw to the NHS. So Mrs May has to try to minimise post Brexit payments to EU!
cracker
no trade deal is OK for UK but very bad for EU.
Was Junker sober? That'd be the most startling development
EU: Pay up or we walk away...
The assumption seems to be that May gets the blame for No Deal. Will fall squarely on the shoulders of EU
Why does govt act as if we had a seat at top table? Touted the notion of Empire 2.0, ffs!
Basically blackmail then.
I know blackmails a dirty word.
Let's call it fishpaste.
If only we had our own fishing grounds.
If the UK refuses to pay its outstanding commitments, the EU should start by kicking out @Nigel_Farage & block his pension
Obvious except to May that the UK will still rely on EU trade after Brexit so EU will use that as strong leverage but May doesnt understand
I'm sure the Germans would be very happy with no trade deal and thus reverting to WTO rules :)
This point alone illustrates the EU overplaying its hand. It shows that they don't hold all the cards as they think.
Oh, but they do. We'll be screwed if we don't secure a good trade agreement. The warning signs are already there. Rising inflation etc.
Let's see how Eire thinks about trade, or Poland about migrant workers. It's a two-way street.
20% and potentially losing the tax-haven revenue of tech companies is huge.
We'll see.
A small economy dependant upon U.K. for its continued prosperity.
And it's 36%, not 20%
They hold all the cards, these "negotiations" are going to see the UK routed.
Fine. No trade deal.
May is going to be as useful in Brexit negotiations as a Turkey planning Christmas Dinner
Provide the bill and it will get discussed/negotiated. Don't forget the assets to offset ft.com/content/72e679…
We need to pass a bill the leave immediately, not in 2 years. Then if they still stick with the ridiculous demands, leave.
Can the EU produce audited accounts to support their claim of money owed?
Great, no trade deal. WTO is just fine, thanks. EU will lose more than us and will be forced to offer us a deal.
44% of our exports go to the European market, just 16% of EU exports come to the UK, they have all the cards.
they want one then - & y wud you agree x£billn on 'trust', that EU wud THEN reasonably allw trade ffs - get real. Juncker just prevaricating
Unelected dictat Juncker, like the Commissioners & 7 EU Councils, prevent MEPs representing national issues. Pure dictatorship
And 44% of the UK's exports go to the EU 27, they know that.
this one might be the worst
Yep. PS I'm back at the mothership tomorrow.
Terrifying but also awesome. Let me know when would be good for lunch!
If no deal and the eu wanna bully the uk then so be it ,and let's start a time of Cold War and believe you me he eu is too weak ,will buckle
It is beyond shocking that the British Government could not perform this mental operation by themselves in the last 10mths..
Maybe @theresa_may should change her election mantra to "clueless & unhinged" #GE2017 #brexitshambles
Sounds good.
we have woken up, it's taken us 43 years but awake now
on a bike
How far down the wine list were they, at that stage?
before the first glass, probably even better - before the first sip
Exactly.
505mn/EU28 unable to change EU laws, regulations, leaders, commissioners, councils, treaties=dictatorship
@JeremyCliffe
It isn't but it isn't a marriage either.
#indyref2 Is the sensible option.
Funny that you use the same expression as Farron did????
Damn. She should've tried selling the cricket.
Oh my, the limitless stupidity.
Yes, but you are not allowed to keep playing golf there the next day pretending nothing has changed! ;-)
We leave your club.
- but expect full use of the pool and the bar at the weekends.
Ouch. Is that a subtle allusion to BFF Trump?!
tee hee
did they think she didn't know that? How odd.
No, it's quite clear it's a band of hateful, vindictive bullies.
No a golf club is usually better run and more fiscally responsible!
UK now a joke on world stage
UK now a stooge one the world jake.
And a golf club doesn't interfere in how a member operates at home at the same time as asking them to pay for most of the others fees
Clearly not a golf 🏌 club. You get out what you put in to a golf club. We have paid more into this club and they still want to shaft us.
Even golf clubs make you settle your bill, and don't refund you for the unexpired part of your subscription.
Theresa May's brexit strategy in one stroke
So because the EU is not a golf club UK owes big money. Never read that in the treaties.
Thats right EU is not a golf club its a political union that the British people never consented to - British proud of history Europe not
Great counter... not. So the treaties are irrelevant?
Stop acting like one then
Who does she think is going to pay uk mep's pensions, fund eu projects in uk etc our side are ruddy deluded
We have legal backing to this FACT WE OWE NOTHING ONCE WE LEAVE
As will EU... UK gov already have track record of misunderstanding law. What a mess Brexit is
This is true. Lisbon Treaty has nothing about an exit bill. Why should Britain be bullied to pay when not LEGALLY underpinned by a treaty?
Frightening- does this mean she thinks we don't owe the EIB money?
We don't it all depends how our 16% share of the EIB is liquidated ft.com/content/72e679…
don't say they didn't expect that? Really?
UK 'Give us a trade deal' EU 'after you've paid the divorce bill' UK 'we're not paying' EU 'no trade deal'....not ideal negotiating position
Well it would help if they provide us a bill, and then we can negotiate that. We agree there is a bill, but then there are assets to offset
Why, after 40 years of net payments, would we pay £60bn to negotiate a trade deal worth £6bn/year?
Junker is an out and out Fascist
😂😂😂😂 if that is what you and other brexiteers got from that no wonder we are screwed.....
Good.
If it takes 17 tweets to say what you want to say maybe Twitter is not the medium for you?
EU Owes UK €120bn:
1 EU broke Blair Rebate Deal;
2 UK share of EU Assets;
3 UK cash deposits in ECB;
TOTAL: €120Bbn.
Quite bloody right.
The brexit settlement: the UK sees it as a tenancy agreement. The EU as a utilities contact.
Laughable
I'm no fan of May & think #brexit will be difficult but this sounds alarmist & too technocratic. These details shouldn't have leaked.
Literally every EU commentator has stated that the EU leaks like a sieve. Junker probably approved the leak to get ahead of false rumour
This is basically EU spin and propaganda.
Presumably there were no French fries on the 'menu'
Not to make light, but I just imagine he got his phone out under the table and started messaging a EU27 WhatsApp group while talking.
Now he knows how we feel about the EU!
Do you want to know how we feel about you?
How do you know this?
Jeremy...you remind me of the type of guys I knew at school wearing t-shirts with "I love the Soviet Union".
Does it mention anywhere in the FAZ how many glasses of wine Juncker had had by this point?
he's only just beginning to face reality. This is a bilateral negotiation not a vote of 28.
Juncker is a federalist & hates Brexit & leak is orchestrated to denigrate May. The EU must try to make Brexit a nightmare or others cld go.
Was he drunk by this stage of the evening?
I'll bet he was slaughtered at this point 🍷🍷🍷🍷🍷🍷🍷🍷🍷🍷🍷🍷
I hope Juncker told her that Brexit means Brexit.
We did notice. She told Con Conference we needed to opt out and then voluntarily signed the European Arrest Warrant
Again you are guessing
She will
many claim we can.
How much would that cost??? Why the devil bother to go through all that? Definitely on a different planet!
Sorry, but WTF?
Want to know how Theresa May has come to be quite so delusional about Brexit negotiations? @StewartWood tells you.
THERESA MAY’S MISTAKEN PRECEDENT FOR A BREXIT BASED ON CHERRY-PICKING
As the start of Brexit negotiations with the EU-27 looms, the trickiest conundrum facing Theresa May is that of reconciling the need to…
medium.com
You put your left foot in, your right foot in, do the hokey cokey ..
This is the single most worrying bit - essentially an admission that #Brexit is a domestic political game
Oh God.
I think you've gone native.
What do you mean by #14 and the JHA opt-outs? Why does this "set off alarm signals for the EU"? Because they rely on British intelligence?
no, because May believes the process will be similar. When they won't. EU shocked she's so badly briefed
Because it's a very misleading comparison. See this by @StewartWood for why
THERESA MAY’S MISTAKEN PRECEDENT FOR A BREXIT BASED ON CHERRY-PICKING
As the start of Brexit negotiations with the EU-27 looms, the trickiest conundrum facing Theresa May is that of reconciling the need to…
medium.com
Feared what exactly?
their battle plans not surviving first contact? Didn't they expect that?
Go back to sleep Rolo.
Actually, it rather is! 😈
Wow you guessing again
The UK government talking to itself, as usual. Negotiating without fully understanding the other side's position is a recipe for humiliation
It isn't 'negotiation' in any sense of the word. Basket of incompetents 😨.
That's @Number10gov all over - all talk , no action
thinks Art 67-89 TFEU shared competence principles can be applied to areas of exclusive EU competence. Stupid schoolboy error
Can't we just make areas of exclusive EU competence shared competences - but just for the UK Junker: err No
You don't know much about this, do you?
This makes her sound like a complete idiot. Surely she had more of an understanding of the EU than this?! I'm quite sceptical...
I disagree, is that just a general statement or do you have any evidence for that?
So it is just a general statement then
She failed and failed badly as home sec, simply didn't understand what she was talking about. Little evidence she is competent.
You again are just making general statements!!
There's only 140 characters on here. You couldn't even list her disasters without doing a thread. Rape clause, legal aid destroyed, etc.
I literally do not have the room or the patience to list the number of failures....
...as someone that understands encryption, her ridicules attempts there would keep me typing for hours. She was an utter failure.
that pretty much nails it
What's your evidence for disagreeing? There's more anecdotal 'evidence' to suggest poor performance than good.
Troll alert
I mean, she appointed Boris J as foreign secretary. 🙈
Not an idiot, but profoundly uninterested in European affairs; a rude awakening. Problem is, I suppose, that those Tories who'd actually >
> be able to make Brexit 'work' are seen as way too Europhile and wouldn't be accepted by their party atm (or wouldn't accept the task).
She gave Boris Johnson a position that requires tact and finesse. Not sure she has much of a grip on reality let alone the EU.
Showing strong and stable leadership there eh? 🙈
I think @TheresaMayPM is confusing 'strong & stable' with 'pig-headed & ignorant'
He said she was living in an alternative reality. Really comforting.
has been fully briefed. She just chooses not to listen to civil servants who don't tell her exactly what she wants to hear
Sounds like Gove
We're all sick of them pesky experts 😂
Given they have known since June last year I'm surprised
If the French don't join Us-We might have to stay in the eu;
however, if We don't have a trade deal then We just go thru the NWO, so what
We are doomed
I wish I could say any of this was a surprise : it's like #Brexit has reprogrammed the brains of politicians similar to a self-harm drug
Pitty for Small Britain but Scotland will be part of us and will prosper.
It could be that Commission see some advantage in briefing against Mrs May. Perhaps they hope that a Corbyn admin would reverse referendum?
Nope. The EU wants you out and has been VERY clear about that. The referendum WILL be honored.
As a citizen of the EU, *if* you totally bury the notion of leaving the EU, I wouldn't object to terminating article 50 proceedings.
ref was advisory,triggering art50 does not mean that it can't all be reversed without another ref. Lot of smoke and mirrors gameplaying
Correct. It was advisory and the Govt have chosen to accept it (I voted remain). All things are negotiable in exit talks. Undermining [1/2]
[2/2] our own negotiating position would be silly. Msr Junker has ample reason to talk down the UK just as we've ample reason the other way
unsurprising, they haven't faced the real world outside their echo chamber yet.
My response to this was a deep sigh and shrug. Not one bit surprised. We're all f'd
I believe her own senior servants can't get her to listen to them.No hope with this delusional woman at helm
This is the 1st time a country has opted to leave the EU. There is no precedent. It is a learning curve for EVERYONE. #Brexit
True. And the EU would rather it not be a success for the UK, or else others would follow.
Any agreement made will be punitive. More likely, no agreement will be made.
)uhh gyio is Jea
Trumpish.
I dont if she s playing a masterfully thought out pokergame she ll reveal to us mortals in due time or if she just doesnt have all the infos
As I've repeatedly said there is absolutely no deal to be had. Brexit talks will collapse early on and the price will be paid by UK poor.
all part of the grand master plan of the EU.
Headed by the lizard people right?!
hell yes.
does she listen?
So you're saying... there's still a chance? We just have to pray that May is even more incompetent than we ever imagined!
So want to be on the wrong side of history. Unfortunately can't see it @redknight1892 I still think this is a cock up start to finish...
Looks like May and Trump can share a catchphrase: "who knew it would be so complicated!?"
May showing all her superficiality
We constantly delude ourselves this way. They're not "badly briefed." They're stupid. -dlj.
Thank you @JeremyCliffe. Shocking but on the other hand, not. Wonder if @jeremycorbyn knows about this?
who do you want to do better out of the process - EU or UK?
Well said, @DietsQ . I think that's what many people fail to understand.
You vote for MEPs. Add the representatives chosen by each country`s governments. They all decide who does what.
Wtf does Juncker know. We haven't sank into the big hole he predicted have we
Common misconception from Brexit voters. Read carefully: WE HAVE NOT LEFT YET AND STILL IN SINGLE AND CUSTOMS MARKET. Thanks
Don't be a prick Nick. Jeremy is making comments that he cannot possibly prove and the predictions of instant recession were in his rag.
I know you want the UK to thrive (we all do), but have some common sense. It's about economics. Find out just how unsustainable Brexit is.
If they want to play silly buggers with the UK then we play them at their own game.. It's not rocket science.
First, they're not playing silly buggers, simply refusing to harm themselves to appease fantasists who expect to be rewarded for leaving.
Second, you should only play when you have a chance of winning.
Is that what you said about Brexit and Trump? They had NO chance in winning.. What happened there? You should keep your thoughts to yourself
That's not a great example, what with the wake of chaos each is leaving in its path. Stop touting winning and look what you've won.
there's a difference between winning a vote (which I expected, unless voters had been too scared by economy) and getting what you wished for
You can vote to leave. But you cannot vote for other people to fulfil your wishes and give you a better deal than they give themselves.
I voted remain so what really is your point?
My point remains my first one. They're not playing silly buggers.
But they are.. If they want to charge for trade then we charge them. If they want to stop UK residents having free movement the we stop to
The EU is very patiently trying to explain to the UK that it cannot leave the club yet continue to use the facilities.
Well that's only a tory view of it
It's not hard to work out. They need a good relationship with the UK or they wouldn't be playing silly buggers
If this is how deluded remainers are, then we are absolutely, royally fucked.
Why? Do you think the UK is thick?
it's bad that hard Brexiteers don't want a democratic compromise within the UK; it's sad that they think they can force their will on the EU
Is it not the EU forcing it? As I said before, if they want to play silly buggers then give it them back. If La Pen wins there will be no EU
'Third state' today, 'Third world country' tomorrow
The biggest lie all leaders are telling are is that the financial system is stable, when it is about to crash.
Whose financial system? Global financial system? Or just Russian financial system?
Global, starting with Europe's, starting with Italian banks. It's the reason why despotism is on the rise. All the money's been stolen.
This is how ordinary people live and die. Chased for small debts while banks lose billions.
Debt-ridden courier's suicide after bailiff visit prompts call for reforms
Coroner raises concern over debt-collection agency’s practices after it clamped Jerome Rogers’ motorcycle before he died
theguardian.com
Thank you for link.
The Brexit negotiations also will paralyse Britain and the EU, making it impossible for them to deal with all the other crises.
and EU will be a third state to the UK.
That's it in a nutshell, Europe want to make it a failure to send a message
More of the defeatist, anti-British junk we have come to expect from the Economist. Most of the world is not in EU/Customs Union.
Hold on, Juncker is usually pissed out of his brains most of the time, so why is he being given so much credibility here?
It won't be a success - FOR THE EU !!
well at least we haven't got a leader on an opportunistic power grab with a dodgy mandate unlike.....errr oh...... how do I delete a tweet?
So basically he's reacted like a petulant child?
Exactly this. Instead of respecting democracy (as they say they do), Juncker & his cronies are, quite frankly, being a right bunch of cunts
Confirmation that the EU thinks success of Brexit is solely determined by the exit deal, not about what the UK can go on to achieve outside.
Because they have a 60 billion hole on their gravy train
Almost sounds like a wife beater to me.
What planet are you on, ever the Remoaner with hardly any facts and ignoring them close to home. The Beano Economist.
THE EU CANNOT BE A SUCCESS EITHER, more chance or brexit been
Thats true too!
EU will, without doubt, offer a worse deal; that's why U.K. must trade with new markets. We have the freedom to do that now.
Not until we're actually out of the EU we don't.
In the end, it'll be a hard Brexit and the UK (or what's left of it) will be run by Russia and the US. Glad I don't live there anymore.
In the end, a freed, unrestricted, less regulated UK, with 88% of its trade NOT in EU now, will prosper @jhilton7777 @JeremyCliffe
Good luck with that. Trade is only a smidgen of what EU is about. The UK you dream of is an illusion stemmed from delusion.
That's why UK leaving!
EU=political Party fails because trade is only a "smidgen" of its MAIN political dictator-aim. @JeremyCliffe
As I said, good luck with that. England will become the Russia's little puppy dog. Woof!
No chance of Russia's weak corrupt economy leading UK!
Ruble -50% 14-16
More likely Russian bear follows UK Bulldog!
@JeremyCliffe
Yeah right. Keep living in your delusion.
Nice Delusion
1 World's 5th most successful trading nation economy!
2 World Financial Centre!
3 World Pound Sterling!
@JeremyCliffe
PM May knows what a good 52% Brexit is - but is canny enough not to hand over our UK advantages to EU/Juncker/Merkel
@JeremyCliffe
A losing side (EU to lose UK jobs-machine/2nd biggest fee payer/nuclear power/UK forces) must offer WORST DEAL!
@JeremyCliffe
EU motivation is to show EU27 that leaving the almighty EU mafia-style dictatorship "costs" -typical bully tactic
@JeremyCliffe
You ignore the truth
1 Only 12% of ALL UK trade is done with EU!
2 Customs union & sgle market NOT needed for 88% of UK trade!
You think that the economy can withstand losing 12% of trade? Hell of a contraction. Could end many businesses to benefit of EU competitors.
I didn't say that at all!
My point is EU TARIFFS can only be imposed on the 12% UK-EU trade.
No EU-UK tradeloss
@JeremyCliffe
I believe no EU-UK trade will be lost postBrexit
Profit motive 2 strong.
Any 'No Deal' tariffs will be on EU&UK
@JeremyCliffe
Okay, but surely increased materials + tariffs = drop in exports? Likewise Imports down, so some contraction very likely.
So Brits will now maybe need a Schengen visa to go to Spain on holiday.
Just walk away. Start negotiating with WTO. We import £60 billion more than exports, just approve Like for like duty tax.
That's not possible. Uk will need to negotiate it's part of shared EU schedule of tariffs at WTO so requires direct engagement with EU
Which means agreed tariffs under WTO arrangement.
Schedules = not just tariff rates but details of volumes etc. Most favoured nation principle means 0% for eu need to be for every wto member
My basic point is this is v complicated & walking away is essentially not an option = harm to eu; disaster for uk; let's hope sense prevails
A lot of posturing from both sides, not helped by some of the pro anti Brexit shite comung from so called quality papers.
Uk would this be open to legal challenge. EU is also major block in WTO so cannot be set aside to negotiate 'with WTO'. It is (part of) WTO.
It has an agreement with with WTO, UK free to talk to WTO as a individual country.
UK is member of WTO already but doesn't have own schedule of tariffs outside of common eu schedule. Dividing that up would need to be agreed
Thanks for your info. 👍👍 interesting few years ahead
I suspect compromise/mutual intersest and good sense will prevail. Brexit/ retarder far mor complex then coamiagns suggested. Enjoy bank hol
And you my friend 👍👍👍
UK can't unilaterally offer 0 tariff to eu (or eu reciprocate as this is illegal under WTO law outside of formalised free trade agreement
But means that reciprocal tariffs will mean reasonable access to EU market. Like for like
Which is essentially a trade deal with EU. It's not possible to walk away as suggested
Actually it is, many experts have agreed legally. Ramifications are interesting. But nuclear option is an option
'Interesting' is a very interesting way of describing it. I really hope we don't get to find out ;)
Enjoy the paperwork for a Schengen visa
Required documents - Migration and Home Affairs - European Commission
Required documents
ec.europa.eu
Brexit cantvbe a success? Why? Because the EU dosent want it be and want to do us harm?Again they prove Brexit is100% correct
Think he's gone a bit mad
Have to wonder whether Juncker had actually read the unanimously-agreed Negotiating Guidelines ....
They dare not let it be a success as other countries will follow suit and the corrupt morass will implode
I voted remain but I'm baffled how the EU explicitly trying to ensure the UK is made an example out of is not criticised by many remainers.
Because the Leavers asked for it!
We should stand up for right and wrong in whatever scenario. Not say bullying is fine as long as it's done by the EU to the UK after brexit.
It's not bullying. We want to leave. Why should we expect 27 other countries to roll over for us? It was always going to be on their terms
In my opinion it's bullying. I expect the EU to have demands but rather than fairness I think they are going for punishment. Regards
The EU are like this. Farage said they were behaving like the mafia
Nigel Farage says EU gangsters owe the UK billions
(5TH APR 2017) Subscribe for more Nigel Farage content.
youtube.com
Turkey...?
Aahaa! May should conduct state terror against minorities in UK. Start shelling a few Welsh towns to up the rankings!
The 'Brexit can't be a success' comment is revealing of the need for the EU to make it so. Talks will fail because the EU need them to fail.
Psychology and common sense. If you are EU you would say nothing less given they have more to lose. Ridiculous reporting.
Yeah, that'll sort it. SAKE how OLD is this woman? Did she go to school?
What the fuck are they smoking at 10 Downing Street?!
Kippers
Clearly. Because something's fishy coming out of Number 10 and it seems Britons can't smell it.
Realistic glasses, try buying a pair. Shit sorry you work for the biased corrupt eCONomist
A bit like a husband refusing to pay alimony for wife and kids them saying let's make a success of our divorce.
As she did not say sth useful since 23/6/17 in UK, how shall she manage to do so outside? #greatexpectations #fail #brexit #juneendofmay
She's going to soundbite the E.U. into submission with this one.
We was fucked anyway but feels like it's somehow going to be worse than anyone even thought.
they prefer to damage the shrinking EU than be a success
"Let us make Brexit a success" is the most naive, deluded thing I have ever heard a politician utter.
she's really good with meaningless phrases
No doubt followed up by our need for a #StrongAndStable Europe 😩
May's Brexit is 100% electioneering. May will *always* choose being PM of a smoking crater over not being PM of not a smoking crater.
Slogans do not work with well educated, conscious people. May is an embarassment to the UK.
Wanting a v. quick #Brexit suits May specific domestic issues. It's unreal given both the complexities & the legal situation.
As a Brit whose lived in Italy 7 years when I look at May's edicts ... I can only say ... What on earth is happening IN the UK?
As a German living in London, I don't get it either. But still it can be a success depending on your definition of it
Merkel has been told by Head of German Chamber of Commerce to ensure UK has a good trade deal that won't German Companies. CRACKS BEGINNING
EU delays not U.K.
Let's face it.Leavers will get a strong dose of reality by time this is finished.They are completely deluded about uk's bargaining strength.
You could well be right but then again as can happen you might well be wrong.
Strange.... according to UE Commission transparency was impossible while CETA negotiation although many EU states and people calling for it
that is the EUs internal problem. "No deal" is always easier with the EU.
Because she doesn't want reality to clash with dreams. Reality usually wins.
#the3million should prepare to leave.
Thank you - this is exactly what I had in my head. Brexit working off academic test papers with no understanding of reality.
Just been contacted by staff from within the Euro Parliament and told I must remove this video. I won't be. #TTIP
TTIP Farce.
This is how openness and transparency doesn't work in the European Union.
amp.twimg.com
Oh look! EU Democracy vs British secretive regime
This secrecy schtick is a killer. Trying to take her old Home Office MO to a massive multi-stakeholder international negotiation. Sheesh.
no different to ttip negotiations?
There's the rub. May has brought her blinkered, suspicious Home Office view of the world into Downing St.
Desperate to hide the negotiation from US, not ( as she claims) her position from the EU but fromt he British public - wonder why?
hilarious
Makes sense.
To much work to @JunckerEU
looks good
Illusions of Empire still present. Total ignorance of ESF and EDF money essential to UK services. Ignorance of pm role, not monarchical.
no transparency - what a shocker.
One has to wonder, why all confidential? What has to be hidden from the public? And for what reason?
The EU wants transparent talks and will publish it all. Why does she want secret talks?
"Confidential" from whom, the British Public, sounds like Mrs May prefers a "Keeping Mushrooms" policy to me !
did Canada have to pay £50bn up front to talk about free trade ?
sorry , what is RAL ?
ok thanks
Here's Richard North to explain: eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?…
and what is owed for what we've already contributed to? Our EU assets already bought must be immense!
You & your partner buy a house together, then one of you no longer wants the relationship/house. The house still needs paid off.
the equity built up over past 40 yrs pays it off & more! No longer the EU meal ticket!
No it doesn't. You're assuming these agreements & circumstances haven't changed in 40 years - they have.
Burdgets & contributions are continually updated & agreed upon by ALL members (that's still us).
but this is a one off, an extortion racket & encapsulates perfectly why we're leaving!
Why are we leaving?
because we decided we didn't want to be ruled by a supranational state any longer?
We aren't and never have been. The UK has always had a veto to use on thing it doesn't want.
we'll be in charge of borders, laws & finances - that's democracy, a veto button isn't!
Ask Scotland, ask NI, ask Gibraltar (96% to stay in EU!). Ask them about democracy.
or people working in the EU?! To live in EU and take citizenship is always an option
please cut me out if the replies - thx
Yes. It's one I fear might be used as retaliation if the UK doesn't guarantee EU citizens in the UK their rights. Does that make either ok?
For goodness sake, WE already ARE in charge of all those things!!
any chance taking me off this thread : it's sounds like a re-run of last year - thx
Sorry, have a nice day.
Sorry. Have a nice day.
if u needed to understand why we're leaving the way EU r behaving now is justification
How can thinking & having opinions about more than it says in the Sun, the Daily Mail or the Daily Express be justification for leaving.??
It hasn't all been a oneway flow of £€. EU long term development funding can be found in Cornwall, Wales, Scotland & NI (that I know of).
no one is saying everything shouldn't be put into the mix. But 50 billion?! Laughable!
You have the house: you've spent a fortune decorating/furnishing it, then your partner kicks you out. Wouldn't you want some reimbursement?
you divi up & if ur working u don't look on ur ex as a forever meal ticket, surely
There's no meal ticket here. It's simply about honouring agreements.
of course. And the sum of 50 billion reflects that. Not plucked out of the air at all 😂
there's a name for people like that!
Aye there is. That ones called the UK gov. Cos they won't invest where the EU has, just ask Cornwall.
U know that house? 27 people have been living in it, & we've been paying half the rent
Enough to fund the NHS for a fair few years
It's a net figure. Obviously there will be disagreements about asset values vs size of liabilities.
It means you owe them the money
what on earth does that difference make? They need to grow up - petulance is unbelievable!
The money is for existing and future liabilities. Remember UK has made a unilateral decision to leave
There seems to be quite a few bricks about. Even UK negotiators accept there will be some payment etc
assets & debits shd be taken into account. This isn't an organisation. It's the Mafia!
It was an illustrative point, no?
Illustration that International deals, whatever country, are extremely complex. To think can be solved in a few months is naive/ignorant.
He was just giving examples of previous international agreements to show what we will eventually have to come up with
i.e. to illustrate a point...
is it m (million), or, rather b (billion)?
@Democracy_A2
Canada deal does not include financial services and banking. These areas are the two areas the UK wants access to the EU in.
all May wants are financial services and banking... or her husband will be upset.
When did Canada approve contributing to the EU budget and then trying to run away from commitments? Apples and oranges.
1. That's not what it's for. It's agreeing how much UK liability for EU Policies it created are. eg.
2. EU Civil service pension U.K. approved are 30+ year contracts. UK is still party to that contract - but not for new EU civil servants
Make sense?
yes thx - had lots of replies on this : all very useful
apologies if this sounds patronising but it's reassuring that you're actually looking for information
Did Canada have any existing financial commitments before trade deal with EU? Different scenario obviously.
Er...Canada didn't owe the EU anything. We do.
Can anyone apportion by subject and cost what the outstanding bill is for net contributing britain?
silence. not even bluster.
They aren't leaving the EU
Why are you interrupting with pointlessly. The EU money is related to costs associated with matters Britain signed up to as memeber.
Britain has obligations already committed to; Canada is not an EU member
Stupid comment. As departing eu member we clearly have financial obligations that need to be settled before leaving
Was Canada previously an EU member with commitments & obligations?
What a ludicrous question
No because Canada had not made any commitments that they were trying to skip out on.
Has nothing to do with it. It is about EU budgets and projects up until 2020 the UK has already committed to.
Canada hadn't already agreed spending etc. Divorcee always comes with a bill and only an utter moron would think other wise.
Canada wasn't already a member with pre-existing financial commitments...
Was Canada a EU member ?
Canada does not have on going financial commitments to the EU as you already know, I assume.
Canada didn't have existing obligations to EU
Vintage point-missing there.
you ever tried to get out of a phone contract before it's due date?
Freeland cried & stamped feet to get deal w Malmström; CETA remains skeletal after 7 yrs, Brexit in 2 yrs will be a tight squeeze, I reckon
we're sharing a house with 27 others & paying half the rent. No Juncker is shitting himself at the thought of us leaving.
Just over 10% of the rent, but don’t let facts get in the way of your delusions ;)
I agree with you suggesting there is nothing positive in #eu membership.
I don’t think anyone believes that. And by “believes” I mean actually thinks this as opposed to just saying it.
then do tell - other than suggesting european countries becoming subserviant to germany has avoided conflict.
2nd largest net contributor. You do the math.
“maths”. Also we’d contribute 11bn annually to the EU under WTO rules under a hard brexit.
not so. Research and do your math. The golden goose is dead for the EU. That's why they're acting like children
Just rubbish. Get your facts straight.
The usual delusional views of our "greatness" we're a small island off the coast of Europe. Fortunately the empire is history.
No. U miss the point. We want to leave, trade & be friendly with the EU. Its the EU who won't let us. Why ever not?
“You miss the point, I want to leave my gym, not pay for it but still use their equipment. It’s the gym that won’t let me. Why ever not?”
and by the way you made yourself look a total prat with the empire comment. You lost. Get over it. And grow up
Surprised he could fit them in with all the brandy and whiskey bottles
It can be very simple if they want it to be.
He's usually drunk. Surprised it wasn't a bottle of scotch
Sounds positively Churchillian
was he trying to be like Mary Poppins?? Did he bring a carpet bag?
only as complex as the EU trues to make it. It's why the EU has few trade deals.
EU thinks trade deals are about politics not business, that why it takes them a decade to fail to do what others achieve in a year
"Juncker pulled two piles of paper from his bag"
Are you sure one wasn't his bar bill?
To be fair you'd think Junker would have them on a USB stick instead.
Have those countries been aligned to #eu for several decades on movement, trade, banking, standards, law? No comparison.
Jeremy, are you really a journalist at the Economist? Please don't say it's true?! Uncritical thinking is a big problem here
Criticizing reality is the domain of terminal demagogues and the mentally ill.
How is one person's conclusion 'reality'? Come on, think critically.
Eoin? You retweeted him? For fu...give up, mate. You're 'mentally ill' if you think he holds any value.
Bravo Canada!
It's plain to see the dictatorial #EU Bolsheviks will make it as difficult as possible... ludicrous demands are plenty & laughable
shame on Juncker cant hold his piss s always
How good is he at pulling lampshades out of his carpet bag??!
Brexit can be straightforward. Against Canada UK today matches all EU relevant standards & rules. FTD can b done in months if EU wishes.....
The "six kilograms of paper" part was particularly striking.
also the May suggestion that EU immigrants already living in Britain would simply be treated like other immigrants was odd
Bad argument from Juncker on EU nationals. I hope those noting weaknesses in UK readiness will question what this delay achieves.
It's not just Juncker. This view is widely shared across EU institutions, and some capitals. See Tusk's remarks yesterday.
Understood. But real question should be content of political/principle disagreement. Technical challenges to implement not a reason to delay
Negotiations are about power and tactic. Both are based on accurate information and assessment. May seems to lack both.
She seems to be lacking a whole lot more than that. My god, so delusional.
They don't want to delay sorting it out. They don't think it can be done (properly) in a couple of weeks
So first summit should do it properly. Argument over legal oversight substantial. Idea health, pensions too complex looks like red herring.
As you know, I think as a whole, full body of rights, it is very complex + agree, legal oversight is a big issue.
Gets complicated if any of 28 want to resile from clear principle: treaty commitment to protect/ uphold current rights & to implement that
Well, the UK doesn't seem to be particularly keen on that.
exactly.
Key ambiguity in these short media reports: how far is the issue substance of rights, or the oversight mechanism/legal status post-Brexit?
The high approval rate in her country is giving this lady a problem in dealing with people who don't appear to be under her spell.
A contradiction - both sides - between commitment to urgent top priority to settle this & insistence deal is a single (2019) package
I can see scope for contentful disagreement, despite similar rhetoric re top priority. But not that it is so complex they need to go slowly
Contradiction between talk of top priority to settle it early & 'nothing agreed until everything' agreed (puts early deal on ice to 2019)
but they sorted stuff out within 60 seconds just recently, all 27 states, so not an unreasonable timeline, surely?
We voted to leave last June, though. They've had almost a year to think about it
All choreographed for effect. A sad, pathetic gesture by a pathetic, outdated, corrupt supranational state
EU 27 agreed 4 points in 60 seconds b/c they agree. The UK disagrees with the EU 27 on all 4 points. Brexit will take years to negotiate.
I think that was a bit of showmanship, call me cynical. But agreed. We may need to & shd walk away if necessary.
As an Irish citizen, I only hope May is strong and stable enough to see negotiations through, not walk away. No deal wd be disastrous for Us
UK are up for a deal. More complicated for the EU. They have to warn off other countries from doing the same!
Genuinely don't see how UK is 'up for a deal'. Name ONE area where May, Davis and the red-tops are prepared to compromise.
EU nationals in UK for one. May happy to do reciprocal deals to ensure their future, but EU have refused.
Really? I'm an EU national here, and haven't heard that May is prepared to protect me at all. Where did you hear of this deal?
Ah thanks for that! My understanding is that it wouldn't be legal to start negotiations before A50 triggered. That's in a treaty UK signed
I also haven't heard that the EU is blocking any protections for EU citizens here or UK citizens in the EU. Do you have a source?
the FT ok for you? ft.com/content/19edf2…
So I'd blame Mrs Merkel and Mr Juncker for your situation that is rightly concerning you, not Mrs May.
Jo you sound like a typical head in the sand deluded brexiter.Get real, the country's in the shit & it's your fault
Juncker wants to delay Brexit for monetary reasons as EU is skint FACT
EU is in danger of losing is credit rating. Has £50 Billion black hole it can't repay and losing U.K. Donations cripples it.
And not just health care. What would be point of a reciprocal agreements if national authorities have different ways of working?
This considering Home Office rejection rate for PR applications.
you could sort it in an afternoon.
Zero rights to healthcare. Buy commercial insurance. Job done.
So you want all those British pensioners in spain to die earlier then
How on earth would that follow? Insurance will pay for identical treatment.
Cos pensioners are uninsurable at a price most can afford a fact you must be aware of.
And yet they get insurance every day. I guess that's imaginary?
For most over 65 thats precisely what it is
So, none of these myriad British pensioners travelling the world can buy travel insurance? That's literally not possible?
I was talking about the British retirees in Spain who will lose health cover thanks to brexit its not samecas travel insurance
So you don't think a deal is possible or you don't think a private solution can be found? It's impossible?
For most people over 65 indeed it is. why do u think even America has medicaid?
But you are simply lying.
Perhaps but only in the post truth sense of the word
Your claim is that most over-65s cannot buy health insurance. That this is literally impossible. Correct?
She does not have a clue. She is a superficial individual like most far right people, who does not think about the details.
So why was Tusk demanding instant resolution?
My German is a bit rusty so was it May or Juncker who said EU nationals wd be treated as 3rd country? Or did I get it wrong way round?
I ask coz my impression was she wanted, as previously pledged, an early deal on nationals but it seems Juncker replied "oh but process dear"
Juncker is right. Even if both sides agree to sort it out it will take a lot of time to agree the details
Still, I think an early deal on nationals would actually help calm things down a little, not that the EU shd give it before #GE2017
incidentally, if May is determined EU27 citizens will simply become 3rd country, what are odds that's what she said to Merkel at the time?
which then adds more context to Merkel's "refusal" to negotiate pre-A50 since it was clearly not as simple as May wanted...
I don't think she is determined. She is using a lot more EU nationals with votes in UK than vice versa as one of her very few chips.
which makes me (an EU27 national living here since 99) feel absolutely peachy about the whole situation...
Likewise as a Brit in Cyprus 🙁
I work in both UK and Germany. Certainly don't need this s***
"i don't need this s***" is pretty much what I've been saying every morning since last June...
As I've said in earlier threads "EU nationals as bargaining chips" is lead to pushback from East European governments as get quick results
It would need to be played with the subtlety and awareness of the internal politics of relevant EU states this UK government seems devoid of
May implied they would shift to that status under UK law. She doesn't seem to give a damn about UK citizens living in the EU either
As I said in another convo, it is about her only bargaining chip apart from security so even tho it affects me personally I get the tactic
Because enough UK citizens will be caught by this to cause serious trouble I don't think it's a strong bargaining chip.
A lot of us no longer have the vote so they won't give a f*ck. Am about to find out if I do
The sight of a UK government cutting a million and a half of its citizens loose will look terrible on British TV
You mean I should chain myself to the British bases in Cyprus or something? 😈
There will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth from the Spain contingent in particular. Will not look good
On the other hand it is a great way to cut pension costs
Cyprus expats left in Brexit dark - in-cyprus.com
By Frances Miller The deed is done. On Wednesday UK Prime Minister Theresa May sent the formal notic
in-cyprus.com
and NHS :)
And will probably further fuel polarisation over Brexit in the UK itself
I was saying in another thread I just wonder if May has decided that it'll get nasty anyway so might as well cut the crap + start that way
Does she care? Many retired, less NHS money to pay if they stay in EU. Looks like Indian Partition
The pensioners won't stay in EU if they can no longer claim free healthcare in their host country.(+ pension frozen and subject to FX risks)
Exactly, so further burden on already burdened UK services. May hasn't a clue...
That is exactly the kind of messy dynamic that will further fuel polarisation over Brexit in the UK
Ban the tanned pensioners! Come over ere, take our hospital beds ...
By the time that happens, May & Jeremy Hunt will have sold off NHS to US companies
Complex with many strands but one denominator - bumbling arrogance from May and co
Same with the security card. Also an area where May playing games damages vital British interests too. Loses UK respect and credibility
Refusing to honour commitments made in the past (money owed to EU) also hurts ability to agree future trade deals with other countries.
the health costs of retired uk citizens in eu is one of the tricky bits
But many of us who've been out of the country for some time (15 years) have no voting right now in any UK election now.
Here are the requirements for a Schengen visa ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/w… Time to wake up England!
Required documents - Migration and Home Affairs - European Commission
Required documents
ec.europa.eu
May thinks we could just fall under normal immigration rules after Brexit. Juncker said the uk will be negotiating trade as a third country.
Non-EU immigration frameworks don't take a whole set if issues such as healthcare into account UK citizens in Europe take for granted
No clarity over healthcare and ease of registry into local social services will cause a lot more uncertainty than May seems to comprehend
Just more evidence if it was needed about how the UK government underestimates the scale and complexity of Brexit
Juncker said U.K. would be treated as a 3rd country; May said EU citizens would be treated as standard 3rd country nationals. Lucky us.
It was May who made this statement.
Im astonished too...why cant it be??
I have a feeling she wants us EU citizens to stay but lose all entitlements such as access to NHS hence the idea that it can be sorted fast
It's a very simple thing to sort out so why can't it be done?
If her proposal really is 3D country national treatment no deal needed. Also: solution=worst case scenario
it can be. Only the EU prevents it.
FAZ also states that May wants to treat EU citizens like any other non EU country after brexit
It will be June before the EU have decided on which font to use on the council meeting banquet menus! They aren't known for their speed 😂
Further evidence that the EC doesn't do simple.
Plus FAZ Report suggests May thinks EU expats will have same status as third countries vs home office "Don't worry abt permanent residence"
Do you have any information about that possibility @The3Million ?
You should be careful about accepting what the EU briefs; they're clearly playing very dirty indeed
Why were they astonished? - It could. It's this sort of over-complicated long winded bureaucracy/negotiations that's half the EU's problem
sh's behaving like Trump, who needs details I have ignorance on my side!
I’m guessing you’ll be admonishing the people calling for immediate unilateral guarantees then? That they’ve wanted since June 24? 🤔
Ny unstdng = could be sorted out tomorrow if Merkel would just stop blocking the separate reciprocal deal on this
Nice of them. So let's all be very clear who's holding who's citizens to ransom. And who's treating citizens as bargaining chips
This is so EU, pure politics, of course it could be sorted.
Right. As one of those I'm far more worried about May than my host country.
Straight from the DONKEY'S mouth eh?
"The EU were 'astonished'..."
i.e. Merkel wants to keep the expat issue on the table for negotiation leverage.
I get the distinct impression all the "brexiteers" are trying their best to get fired so they cant be blamed for ultimate inevitable failure
Thanks for this recapitulation. Very unnerving. This could be even more of a disaster than we feared.
Banter
Says who?
Opinion, hence the word, 'seemed'
Opinion based upon what exactly??? If this story is true who is the source??? We seem to believe EU publications and disbelieve our own???
If there's no party line even within a dinner meeting then they've no chance
Yes, DRIPA.
appeared
and Juncker and Co now worry whether he will continue to lead negotiations after the election because of it...
Davis always does shit like that. You should listen to him at The Boot & Flogger!
Is he desperately trying to get fired in June? Wouldn't blame him.
That approach is not going to endear UK to 27. This has already gone on enough
Negative, underhanded tactics from @theresa_may NEVER........😇
Based upon what exactly?
if we are going to be paying the budget after we leave of course we want it minimised.
Not a chance in hell. For the EU27 it's just business as usual and will be while the UK continues its plummet downwards.
I love these comments, just who the hell do these Brits think they are, wanting to leave the EUSSR, they must be crushed
and the tone is always Britain, who are a pathetic ppl with zero intelligence, think they are special, they will see, when there dealt with
Could you elaborate on point 3- what do you mean by frustrate daily business?
Namely bocking the budget review because of purdah, but saying that they still wanted to go ahead with Brexit negos. Did not go down well.
Today's FAZ report on May's disastrous dinner with Juncker - briefed by senior Commission sources - is absolutely damning.
What a ridiculous suggestion. Getting desperate.
#TheresaMay has to be seen to be 'standing up' to the EU on daily business to compensate for her weak position during #Brexit talks
#GE2017
Seeems very sensible to do as the French have done in the past and make the enemy's life difficult.
This is believable as #May used to send her ppl in 2 civil servants working in Home Office and bullied them.
an excellent strategy. It served Thatcher very well.
May simply wants to get the best deal for Britain — obviously. And it will also be best for EU for deal to be settled amicably.
Wow, how odd to find common sense among this mass of bitter Remoaners with vengeance clouding their mind
Refusal to approve the midterm Review of the EU Budget is a strong indication that the real saboteur lives in Downing Street.
The UK will be going out on WTO rules at this rate!
As she ahould
Rejected. Typo
“@JeremyCliffe: 2) May has made clear to the Commission that she fully expects to be reelected as PM.” Time to stop her!!
Shes always very clear. Frankly there is so little substance to her she is becoming completely transparent.
everyone does
Are they seriously trying to get us to believe that TM said that? 'Re-elected'.
The country needs to stop this by voting her and her party out.
re-elected ? You have to be voted in first. Her own party didn't have to vote seeing as the others dropped out. #winbydefault
Cocky
Voters need to address this point. Cannot stress strongly enough the need to vote tactically. Country before Party.
Idiots saying she wasn't elected. We vote for a local MP, the party in government votes for its leader. We never choose the pm.
Arrogant
Of course! Corbyn's Labour only offers failed '70-80's Social-Communist policies like his 20-point list
Farron is a poorClegg2
So the people don't have a say.
Clearly off her Meds
I hate those sort of dates.
To think of all those approving profile pieces of the "unerring" "sage" Nick Timothy...
Small time, Poundshop Romanov.
Well this pretty much confirms it, doesn't it? @theresa_may is thick and living in La-la land, most brexiters same. No f**king idea.
And you do?
It says that there are people who don't know how to negotiate, or what they're supposed to be negotiating for. No wonder May keeps dithering
Oh, that classic ploy of threatening to shoot ourselves in the foot if they don't give us what we want. That'll be sure to work!
Utter foolishness. C'mon what are your qualifications dude, impress us...
Voting to get fucked by Tory. Loooolz. How to fool the British working class 101
They can quite easily leave them. They have very little to lose. We have a lot to lose.
"Fog in Channel, continent cut off"
Yeah, it's not as if we've got virtually irreplaceable trade arrangements with the EU or anything important like that.
You literally have no point to make.
If I were you I'd be worried abt my kids. Hard times a coming. In 10 years' time you'll be denying you're 1 of the idiots voting for #brexit
So do you think our unemployment for youths will be as bad as Greece , Spain , Italy ? because the EU has really worked out well for them eh
How does that affect UK trade?
If the EU is responsible for high youth unemployment, how come the UK, as member, hasn't been affected? It worked out fine for us.
More to do with the euro, which we have no plans to join.
Not really an explanation as to why this won't be a massive catastrofuck though, is it? Your message = "believe". You'll need to do better.
Ah, Brexit in a nutshell: nobody has a clue what to do so they just resort to keeping their fingers crossed and repeating platitudes.
Yes it has, but all the Brexiters have come up with is empty rhetoric and demands to "get behind Britain" or similar emotional nonsense.
It'll be the last one for a while, once the reality of Brexit hits home.
So you think we should walk away from trade deals because we've talked about a lot already? That's a novel approach.
I wouldn't negotiate 😂No mate, but this isn't the same as you trying to get yourself out of your round at the pub.
I get the feeling Europe wants may to lose the election lol
Dangerous thing to think, everyone thought Cameron was trying to throw the last election by lack of substance as well.
When you have contempt for all humanity, its hard to see problems in our chaotic world....
Come on mouthy tell us who is your supposed source?????
FAZ Frankfurter Algemeine Zeitung. German quality paper, briefed by the European Commission. It is all in ghe thread.
It's a biased thread based upon lies by juncker.
Yup. Sums up the belligerent block head myopia of Brexit. Plenty more to come
Silly boy Sean. Some facts will challenge your fantasies. We learn this as we grow as adults.
Which facts are they. Just a fake news story from Germany.
Ooooh you've got a picture of a lion with a cross. You are clearly a great Christian patriot.
So the response must be you have a picture of a cat so you must be a pussy????
Your source for this?
I meant his assertion that this is lies
When stories appear like this without any form of proof invariably they are lies or a very twisted version of the truth.
Give it time. Even you will eventually find out that these weren't lies at all.
So this leak isn't timed to try and hurt May and halt Brexit ?
You are pro eu so want this to be true. I'm anti EU and don't believe this is anything other than a dirty tricks to try upset UK voters
Go do something else then. All German newspapers are saying the same thing!
And your source?
Lies by the man who leads the bloc we're negotiating with? Wake up and smell the coffee. We're fucked.
Just because someone gives you news you don't want hear doesn't make it a lie. I hope May sorts it out, I need this to work out.
Is it news??? Who says it is and who backs this story up?? Not a single source has been revealed just Germany trying to pressure U.K. 2 stay
What is your source for this conclusion?
I believe it because it builds on reporting I have seen in other papers I trust about how overly optimistic May is about Brexit deal.
I cannot help what you believe nor can you help what I believe. Guess we can agree to disagree
Well, Merkel echoed the same words. We all heard her, it was on camera. Is this proof enough? So easy to cry fake news these days.
Merkel didn't make the same claims. Merkel isn't even leading her own polls at the minute. There is a long way to go before 2019
Stop embarrassing yourself
Or more likely German propaganda to try and make Merkel look good after her disastrous immigration policy allowing her pet Islamists in.
I'm trying to figure out what makes this story true?? An unnamed source in Germany leaks this to the press and we are expected to believe it
Terrific thread, and...frankly, terrifying.
Jeremy, thank you for this thread. Hugely appreciated.
Thanks for this thread. Much appreciated
Great thread; first class journalism.
We are committing suicide in slow motion.
Not sure what anyone thought would happen. It is also clear that EU now justs wants UK gone rather than drag UK along behind them.
I disagree. There's still the small matter of 4m-ish EU/UK citizens, an EU priority. This leak was a 'wake-up call', or klaxon, rather.
Not sure what you disagree about. its strategic leaking but May and co are headcases and do not grasp that EU are not going to be charitable
We won't accept everything the EU insist on shock horror
Totally AMAZING isn't it ......
The comment on David Davis is illuminating: May embarrassed at & by his self-aggrandisement.
(No comment)
Thanks for the labour in communicating this. Absolutely no surprise. It has always been clear there has been no thinking from Cons at all
'corse it did
Juncker's a dud, she'll have him for toast
Thankfully my missus a better cook than that
You are delusional.
If, as people are suggesting, May is after the hardest of hard Brexits, why are we bothered by any of this?
Really confirms what we fear about #Brexit preparedness - really frightening which Bafoons we have in charge of detailed negotiations
Amazing intel. Has @afneil and @AndrewMarr9 seen this yet?
Probably. They'll pretend they haven't.
Fascinating thread on #Brexit dialogue between U.K. and EU27 - worth reading in full. Concerning and astonishing.
Today's FAZ report on May's disastrous dinner with Juncker - briefed by senior Commission sources - is absolutely damning.
Many thanks for the FAZ thread. Bloody frightening tho'
It's a long one and maybe good for reference in the mths & yrs ahead. But we kind of new it was going to be like this didn't we? #realism
worth reading all his thread.
Dear god, I wish that was satire. It certainly read like a Mr Bean script!
Biased comment, she just proposed two, he picked one of them to start with, very normal approach.
I'd really suggest reading the whole thread. I've just RTd it.
It's like not doing your homework & thinking up, what you believe, is a great excuse for not doing it & then you present it. The dog ate it.
Serious delusions of imperial grandeur from the UK. Adjusting to the new small island status is going to be a shock
I can just imagine the spin from the right-wing Brexit press - 'who do EU think you are kidding Mr Juncker?' Catastrophe gets ever closer.
If this is the EU position with U.K. How would they treat a smaller country?
Depends on the smaller countries attitude and intention
So the dictator Juncker carrying on in his dictatorial fashion, no real surprise there
Seriously, that's what you get from reading these tweets? Wow, delusional much?
What do you get? The EU can go fuck off. If may was serious about Brexit she'd tell them to piss up a rope and quit.
Brexiteers are the very definition of delusional 😕
It's a union with it's own interests to protect. I'm curious, what exactly you expected? EU didn't ask for any of this, UK wanted this.
Is she to make BREXIT from NATO and UNSC?
It's ok, I'm sure British intelligence and economic espionage won't become an awkward elephant in the room during #Brexit negotiations.
Leavers - THIS thread! After Brexit, the UK will be renamed Cloud Cuckoo land ☹️
Oh dear Lord!
No apologies needed. This is terrifying. Also after her #Marr performance yesterday. I was Remain, but willing to adapt. Now thinking, shit.
Read the whole thread!
I suspect this will fall on deaf Brexiteer ears and simply scare the brown stuff yet more out of those living in the real world ☹️
P.S. I'd like to say thanks for this, but I don't think it's really appropriate! 😢
And I am ecstatic that Scotland is leaving ruk and out of mayhem et als clutches .Saor Alba
I read this earlier , mind boggling !
So aside from that, dinner was a blast. (You must let me have the recipe for those delightful leeks)
May made no proposals so Junker proposed discussing EU budget Review, according to article
Uk had apparently blocked and postponed agreement on a revised EU budget because of the forthcoming elections
Do they all move on to Claude's place next episode? What time C4? Theresa will be bringing the wine........
Not 15 minutes; many months. You would know, if you bothered to follow @davidallengreen or read his FT articles on long EU preparation.
Which is their prerogative.
These guys are tyrants!
And we are idiots.
Thank you for explaining things so well...
Great thread. Harsh realities of the effects of Brexit could just be reaching Downing St. They are in a corner not anticipated a year ago.
Oh u were in on the discussions were u? Or just a remoaner trying to get in with ur 5 pennarth worth?
All sensible people knew it would be a shit storm. Only idiots choose to believe otherwise.
Let's all panic..EU biased leak released..prior to election by a man who woke up the next morning and couldn't remember being in the UK
She tends to forget things these days. Her mental powers are failing her.
Jeremy , is it true that EU want £50bn b4 any talks of free trade ? If so why?
Presume got to pay pensions and other charges accruing during time UK was in EU. Definitely not simply a penalty foe withdrawing.
Not just, it's also that they agree for 5 yr period on budget (including obligation to pay) this period ends after Brexit.
Those obligations need to be honoured and this is what EU is insisting on. Might not be too problematic if there is transformation period.
There is a lot of agreed spend, including spend in UK, contracts signed, so money has to be paid beyond March 2019
UK signed up to the spend, if UK reneges may face court action and blocking off exit talks.
got it , thanks
Because there are EU projects that we are contractually committed to finishing and leaving will generate costs.
Paying what we committed to pay as members. Perfectly reasonable.
Canada had not agreed budget spending for the next 10+ years, so world not need to agree to pay its bills before talks
EU simply expect UK to honour its already committed to financial agreements. Would you trade with someone who stiffed on last deal?
thanks Daniel
Perhaps it is customary to settle ones Bill before leaving the Restuarant and requesting future bookings to assure them of ones intentions !
Given what she's trying to do - reunite the right, appear 'strong', will this necessarily do her harm in the GE?
No it won't. But it will harm her in the EU negotiations and eventually she'll be found out.
By which time UK likely damaged beyond recovery to present economic position
How the hell did she get to be an MP she is delusional and completely out of touch with reality #TheresaMay #gettoriesout
I am genuinely stunned that our PM is so unbelievably blinkered, idiotic, arrogant, stupid and delusional! #TheresaMay #Brexit #EU27
You need to watch more MPs.
Thought it was a prequalification for selection by the #Tories.
She's rich, white, corrupt & gives not one f*ck about anyone other than herself. Prerequisite for being a tory MP.#Brexshit #Maysolini
1) because no one else would take an impossible task 2) because she knew it was her only way to get the job. And now she wants to lock it.
Blind ambition & a desire to be PM since school
Exactly. It'll be Tory party's undoing: the'll feel so hyped up by their 'success' in conning UK public they'll overplay thr hand & mess up
Overconfidence, entitlement & contempt for opponents is in Tory DNA & will make them terrible negotiators.
My worry is that historically they are good at casting blame for their failures on others. The cluster**** of brexit will be played by them
Then no wonder May having snap ego boosting election now. 5 years of not having to worry about consequences after being found out.
Hope so! Hope electorate in general start to realise and see what an ignoramus she's being with her other galaxy expectations!
So you want independence from being "ruled by Westminster" so you can be ruled by Berlin.
SNP logic.
It's called self determination like any other country. Its also called "Common Sense and Normal".
You're part of the same country.
This is basic shit.
gosh, you have no clue about politics, do you?
#indyonlytime☺️ lets do it Scotland! When will labour stupor of supporting the tories come to reality jeezoo what did they promise our souls
Labour didn't support the Tories but other than everything you said you're quite right
Labour = Red Tories in Scotland
Whereas the SNP are the Thistle Tories.
Not perfect, but SNP and the Greens are the only social/democrat parties in Scotland now. Sad decline of Labour (over the last 25 years)
The SNP talk a good game but deliver little on progressive issues.
Not seeing any strong shifts towards independent Scotland. Are you? Polls not chats...
Maybe you should go up there and actually talk to people then...
Or maybe data is a better reflection of reality than random anecdotes from a self-selecting sample.
Tend to agree, but 2015 polls (other than exit) didn't have outright Tory win. Polls flawed and unreliable too, just less so than anecdote.
True. But Scottish polls have been pretty accurate in recent years.
Much depends on the commissioner of the poll too, certainly. I think if there was a genuinely non-partisan MSM in Scotland...
This attempt to present us as a magical foreign land has long since worn off. UK-wide media have your number, 118.
Yes, I believe British Nationalism is increasingly seen for what it truly is in Scotland by all but those who gain materially from it.
Weak stuff, and goes a long way to explaining the mood shift..
What mood shift?
The one which is causing panic in SNP/Tory marginals. As you know.
I don't know actually. I don't read Lib Dem press releases.
Weak stuff.
"You should come to Scotland & speak to people"
~*people in Scotland speak and disagree with you*~
"SHUT UP YOUR A BRITNAT!"
No your a lie- dem & have only yin MP Carmichael the greatest liar #frenchgate tick damn tock ur union is over #indyref2
aye but not personally lol thank fck
just replied to ur PM by mistake on here damn iPhone lol
Figured that! 😂
J remember the old trains gee me a break ffs technology & me 😜
that's me with my iPhone 3s till its obsolete lol
If that's true then you read nothing outwith the echo chamber.
I'd prefer it if the people of Scotland had Media that informed rather than mis-informed them.
Haha, what does that even mean? If it not the "people of Scotland" informing them, what'd be the point of Gina Miller sticking her oar in?
It means that the people of Scotland have a media that lies to them. A bit like your sole MP in Scotland...
No, it means you believe voters lack basic intelligence and discernment. Such lack of respect never ends happily, as polls now are showing.
Not here 1 tories, liebour & lie dems only 3 to go Scotland☺️
sorry damn phone 1 Tory, 1 liebour & 1 lie dem we remember 2014
I want outside observers & exit polls UK corrupt as fck! #tory
You really are a self serving lot.
Goodbye.
cf. Dan, better to speak to people than retreat to echo chamber
... Yes would be showing a considerable advantage at this point.
That's called an outlier. It's pravda reporting to lead with it
Also since 2014 every polls for every election as underestimated pro indy party votes by a considerable amount.
Aye never underestimate the power of Yes, they hate us & we are not SNP ya suck tories👎 #indyref2
I won't go there but u know it was rigged damn who couldn't see it Double uk BOAK 🇬🇧👎
made me sick! How do we know its legit pmsl leave it tae the tories n Yoons aye right 😏
fire alarms, vans missing, on camera woman switching votes lol Ano truth is robbed
When Salmond called the first vote, support for it was under 30% in the polls, the fact it's over 50% already is pretty big.
What I have learned from previous polls is not to trust polls. Media will force whatever agenda they want.
Make your own poll statistics. Ask the folk you prefer - the question you choose.
Media don't like to report the polls that are showing any shift to Yes. And plenty that don't have had dodgy questions/samples or whatever
Actually, yesterday's poll in times shows shift.
What are you reading!!
We had a parliamentary vote. Done deal, much better than any poll! Live with it!
they can't tell you this roll on indyref2 never thought it was democracy finally ppl waking up
W the lot of them lol democracy what's that..watch will I vote ya dicks I'm poor & sick & still have a vote 🎣
I'm nae voting liebour, lie-dem or the others cannae bring myself to give them capitals or my vote #SNP
I'm English, don't want to lose Scotland, but good luck to you. Would do the same in your position.
🤣🤣🤣Scotland do not even meet the economy criteria to rejoin the EU, if EVER they got Independence 10.2% GDP, no Barnett Formula 🤣🤣🤣🤣
No you didn't...the EU referendum was a vote for the UK..Scotland didn't have a vote..seriously..how thick are some Scots!? 😃
So did parts of England (each bigger than Scotland) Scotland is part of the UK. If you want out - let the English vote in Indyref2
But you would have been out of Europe if Indy had happened😂
Yeah, and Scotland voted to stay in the UK. Make up your minds.
Scotland didn't get a vote on EU membership, it's not a member of the EU.
Aye we have been in a member state for 60 odd yrs I won't get it to it but we qualify 🤔🇬🇧👎 EU YES👍🏻
your pish disnae work here since 2014 #yoons
dirty lying bastards 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
We voted to stay in the UK and as such have not been dragged out because we vote as a "united kingdom" funnily enough
As a snp voter I voted to leave the EU & I won't be dragged back in so unfortunately I have to vote some other party.
you voted the way a political party told you to vote SNP, intollerant of any resistance
Theresa May and this Tory Government are unfit
You haven't mentioned she wants EU citizens treated as third country nationals.
It's a summary of an article in the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung.
thread fro you @davidallengreen
No, actually - some Brexiters did. May is even now saying we can get a deal within 2 years. Barmy
learn to read
It's the UK Gvmt positioning itself as the enemies of the EU, while the EU are being transparent, and have been since before the EURef.
"I imagine..." - a typically intellectually lazy Brexiter response. No facts, just delusional dreaming. You're about to be found out
Even lazier
I think that's down more to a lack of knowledge as to when to fall over than any outstanding resilience.
Naturally, the negotiations will be difficult and tumultuous. But to provide balance, we must consider the alternative to 'Leave', which..
... Was to 'Remain'. But how would that have panned out? Remain under what T's & C's? Camerons negotiations were a failure if I remember?
What's the future of the EU? Most of my European friends, some of whom semi intelligent, strongly support the UK in Brexit.
We have to study the full picture, not focus on political posturing and point scoring.
That wil be more people's lack of interest in you than anything
Here is one: UK - 4% of world GDP with EU trade & 2.6% without. 27 EU countries - 25% of world GDP. They simply don't care.
...just like the Black Knight in Monty Python
If you stir the pot, it's best to educate yourself beforehand to know which end of the spoon to grip on to.
If your take from reading that was 'we've got them right where we want them', then continue not voting. It's something you're good at.
Despite news, the world is your oyster. Wonderful places to see, people to meet, exciting things to try. Don't squander yourself on twitter
Suggest that as you were to idle to vote you have no valid opinion or right to comment, as for the EU is not it's members, that's pure junk
Grow up. Once you do you'll realise it's not entertainment.
I f you didn't vote, then your opinion is worthless, and whatever happens, you won't have had a say in it.
Remind this intellectually lazy Brexiteer which facts you refer to apart from the EU27 opening gambit and spin
Typical delusional Juncker's pet response - no facts, just insult and threats :-D
(Look up behemoth in the dictionary. It's a joke. A good one)
Neither do I, but I don't need to imagine, I know the EU knows what it's doing, while the UK Govt is delusional.
You don't have a clue just stupid xenophobic optimism.
Do your headlights often pick out frozen behemoths? What are they actually? Damn all to do with the EU in any case.
A behemoth is from jewish mythology in Book of Job in the Bible. A big monster from the deep, a bit like Theresa May.
Not sure she qualifies as a behemoth-too shaky & unconvincing-but extreme right Tory monster that's emerged from the deep is a perfect fit!
Trouble with behemoths in the headlights is you crash into them and die.
You don't have to imagine. The EU has agreed it's negotiating guidelines, and Juncker doesn't sound frozen in the FAZ piece.
Hmmm. All 27 countries just signed up to their negotiating position on Brexit. Seems like they are at least all on the same page.
"a behemoth in the headlights."
This makes no sense.
make no mistake. The EU is very well prepared for these negotiations. The UK on the other hand.....
The UK didn't have a plan at all for this 10months ago... or now
Are you drunk?
If we leave without paying the bill that we have incurred, who else in the world will trust us and do a trade deal with us? No credibility.
We can't run out of the restaurant having gorged on finest wines & cheeses w/out paying Tthat's why Tories will put up taxes to pay the bill
In order words you have ordered the food in the restaurant but when it arrives you say you are not hungry and won't pay?
17) May then insisted to Juncker et al that UK owes EU no money because there is nothing to that effect in the treaties.
she could say the moon is made of cheese and tha would not make it so.
Nope no cheese but the fact we part started eu and are still paying now ! Means go fuck your 52 billion we all paid up it's beyond a joke ,
She more or less says this 😂 just in different words.
So the treaties don't say "you commit to pay your signed-up budget responsibilities"? That would be quite an oversight.
Indeed I have read it, but Mrs May ha over the years proven to be singularly stupid at Home Office & as PM and her words have no weight
Check @davidallengreen why this is out of the back end of a bovine
🙂
The problem is you already ordered the pudding!
We still must pay for Farage's coffee & brandy...
Except we already ordered dessert. Those aren't just for the EU. They will include things that fund U.K. projects too.
We've still gotta pay staff pensions, security payments etc...
Hmm - would be interested to know the detail on that. Might continue as joint projects for example.
UK benefits when other countries converge to affluent European standards (in or out)
And, more importantly, UK committed to pay that money
UK economy as a whole, especially exporters, benefited from the opening up of E.Europe, the development of the south, and even of Ireland.
not really as cost of imports up and just in time supply chains in doubt post Brexit, economy spluttering last Q
Not enough chars to even list what farmers, industry, science, hospitals, medicines, transport, environment etc etc benefits UK has received
There's plenty including staff pensions
Undermine - read the reported discussion Mayday is undermining - and I don't want to pay more tax for her & your folly - better in than out!
Indeed there we have it - I am a fan of EU - we are making (as has already been proven) a financially ruinous path by pursuing Brexit
No i have the trading benefits the free movement and cultural immersion that I cloak myself in - what do you wear?
So you support EU companies - they'll be so pleased
I wish I could tell the bank manager that.
No. We pay for what we've ordered. HUGE difference.
17) May then insisted to Juncker et al that UK owes EU no money because there is nothing to that effect in the treaties.
And as she's clearly making it ALL up as she goes along, in the face of incontrovertible evidence to the contrary your (and her) point is?
NOt according to the reported conversations from the dinner....May won't pay....which is not hardballing it's reneging
So if my husband leaves me and our 3 children he doesn't have to contribute to their maintenance for next 10+ years?
It's a perfect analogy. And you know it.
Which ironically, is what you're due
No you pay your contractual obligations.
Real-world negotiations likely to involve more than just sticking to letter of existing contracts: this was dealt with in OP's tweets 17-20
These are the contractual obligations.
No - you are wrong on this. You pay for services you've had. #fact
what your saying is this "I know I signed up for a service, but I choose to not have it, now can I have my money back"
We've benefited from EU: preferential trade deals aided by freedom of movement, subsidies, grants, EU Social Fund, redevelopment, education.
Try the analogy of a gym membership.... now do you get it?
We pay for what we have signed up for actually, not what we have had. Could you walk away from your mortgage? Try it!
U.K has no leverage which is what remainers argued would be the case but leave voters claimed we were fearmongers when it was the truth
Following on from your point @CAdamMartin proportionally it won't be the rich paying for this either, but the working class and poor.
Absolutely - that's the Tory way - lie to get in and fleece poor/disabled/middle class once returned to power - Tories cannot be trusted
Isn't it more like all 28 at EU restaurant, we have paid for our meal, and at least 10 others - we want to leave after meal b4 drinks start
and the other 27 are saying, hold on - who is going to pay for the drinks? We were relying on you to foot the bill.
We are running out of he restaurant without paying because if the rotten menu
Corp Tax down personal taxes up.
If by fine wines you mean some filthy fucking immigrants blackberry then stick it up your arse
May seems to think she can act like the very worst stereotype of the English landlord, kicking the EU out but keeping its possessions & rent
And then why should any individual pay any debt?
Bill? The UK flooded the EU with cash.
It does mean that there's a clear, unequivocal precedence of not accepting financial responsibilities for when Scotland leaves the UK.
Hahaha it's the utter arrogance of the Brexiters that makes me laugh and laugh. They are in for a helluva shock.
They seem to believe that there were no consequences related to the idiocies spewed at them for the last decade by Mail, Express etc. Fools.
Or high? EU looking on in horror at a car crash in slo-mo that won't affect them much at all.
no . EU not frozen, position has been consistent since before referendum try this if you can read
ft.com/content/74e5fe…
Drunk or daft
You're deluded, you're wrong and you're stupid.
Perhaps just read some news reports. Your imagination is off-planet with no oxygen supply.
That's why you don't move in higher circles.
Ha ha ha! You really are that dumb.
Then you imagine wrongly. The EU has and will continue to pull together in the face of a fundamental threat created by brexit
You know when Junker said about some living in another galaxy? You can class yourself as one of them! 😂😂😂😂
You're absolutely right... you don't move in "any" circles.
No, I think that's all he does, shuffle around in circles, never moving out of them to look at facts.
Wow, your state of denial must be of astronomical proportions if you can read the above & still make such statements.
Why would they be? What a silly assumption.
Are you mad?
You need to appreciate that you cannot be better off out than in, simple.
You're not imagining, you're fantasising. EU has hundreds of experienced negotiators & years of experience in negotiations. They're prepped.
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂- as if!
Headlights on a car, behemoth big and immovable, car, no brakes, screaming towards at 100mph. Collision, car totalled, somewhat apt.
Keep imagining Arab. Your imagination won't enhance the reality.
No! just needs to add IDS to his name
"Like a Behemoth in the headlights" made my day.
NOT frozen. Are standing firm on their positions that have been clear to those with > half a brain & ability to read since before 23 June
Where the hell do fuckwits like you appear from? We tell the EU to take a hike and now you tell us they're our enemies. Are you ill?
FFS. Open your eyes and ears.
I work there & trust me, it is not the EU that is frozen or fooling itself! Why would they be, there are more of them...
Also, I think PM May is currently using the wrong strategy heading into negotiations with the other 27 Member States.
She... she has a strategy?!
Good point. Maybe "tone" is the better word ;) whatever it is, she is rubbing people up the wrong way already!
Are you a columnist for Murdoch's @TheSun, Rab?
Come on, he's thick, but that's a bit harsh.
The EU "frozen like a behemoth in the headlights"
The EU is going about its business - it's the UK that is needlessly frozen in an economic & social abyss! The political part to follow...?
Your argument is based on your imagination, then.👍
It's actually May and the Tories who are frozen. They have no idea what to do and have called election with on empty slogans to distract us
This shows how far removed from reality most Brexiteers are. EU is not your enemy, UK is it's own worst enemy.
Whereas santa Theresa is a moth flirting with the candle flame.
No, the EU are happy to wash their hands of UK problem & welcome monies from UK trade & also corps leaving London for mobility of EU #brexit
I think it is our side that is caught in the headlights ... "EU currently frozen"? My goodness that observation is almost Trump-like!
Do behemoths freeze in headlights?
Always. It means they're not allowed to hold a driving licence. So it's muggins here who is the bloody behemoth taxi...
how could you possibly come to this conclusion???
Read this thread and it's a bit like being in the "higher circles", or at least it's a glimpse of the thinking from the EU. Quite rational.
Thing is, hitting a behemoth while driving is going to hurt the driver like hell, not the behemoth.
You stupid prick
And that's precisely why you don't move in higher circles. The 'frozen behemoth' holds all the cards.
The EU are being transparent. Just read that aloud again. You are hilarious!!!!
EU is the enemy of the EU. It cannot accept the democratic right of UK to leave & will self harm rather than accept the will of the British.
Nobody makes them stay. They just won't taking the silver cutlery with them.
We aren't enemies we just want to leave. They are like the fucking mafia and we should just walk away.
The UK Govt is the enemy of everyone...
The UK government is acting, and in fact is actually, the enemy of the United Kingdom.
Yea course, so UK politicians tell lies but EU Politicians are honest & trustworthy victims of the UK's evil Establishment ?
Almost half the French voters want a ref or to leave EU. The EU will dismiss their concerns & plough on with deeper Union. Nice!
The EU transparent?! Nothing says blind faith more than that!
EU and transparancy do not even exist in the same universe :-D
Aah, the unelected gods of the EU to worship in awe
That's simply not true , the EU are acting insecure and intransigent, and sadly Remainers are cheering them on.
How naive! How do you know what's leaked is the truth? And why assume it is?
Deflection required. Suggest pre-emptive attack on Spain in case they annex Gibraltar.😂😂😂
😂😂😂😂 the EU being transparent what delusional garbage
The EU is simply doing what it always said. It has been honest and clear. U.K. Tiring this into a conflict by nationalist posturing.
The #EU transparant? They don`t know what that word means
No! 27 - 1 'you can check out anytime you like - but you can never leave!'
All in order to "blame" the EU when talks inevitably either collapse or end up with a worse deal for the UK.
Learn to read
1/ Your claim the "EU now positiioning themselves as enemies of the UK" is simply false.
2/ Leave w/ no deal, then. EU is prepared for that.
Necessary. May is positioning herself as an enemy of EU, 'cept she's too thick to realise this.
Are you really this dumb? 'Enemies of the UK' because they won't bore to a delusional PM?
Learning to read is very helpful, books, magazines, leaflets, it's all there, hashtag:learningstuff
No, please re-read the above. Why does May want all of this held in secret? To keep it away from us until it is too late. It looks BAD
What else do you suggest you do with your "enemies" (all 27 of them)?
Well, all 27 countries just signed up to the EU negotiating position - with no argument.
Yup - even Greece. Despite everything they have had to endure, even they have the sense to realise they're better in than out.
Thanks for confirming I'm on the right lines. @yanisvaroufakis
You were told this would happen, yet Leave's argument was "the CEO of BMW will make it all ok". Reality is biting now. Got a plan?
I mean, as a Eurosceptic 48%er who would have been convinced by a sensible plan, I personally would like *not* to, but I lost, get over it.
Lol. I simply mean that the Institutions despise us & Barnier & co will not miss a single opportunity to screw us. That informs our approach
And if your photo wasn't of you dressed in uniform yr grandfather would have been to young to wear, you might have more credibility wrt that
As it is, there's this suspicion that Brexiteers *want* this fight. They want tally ho, chocks away, death or glory, over the top, charge!
No none of that. The EC works by bullying MS (FR, EL, IE) so we should not assume a polite consensus. They will want to hurt us.
Both my grandfathers wore uniforms & left limbs on battlefields. I appreciate the history but my work & academic background give credibility
Fair enough. Personally I chose not to honour my uncle who died somewhere over the channel by cosplaying as him, but you do you.
(Great uncle). But my point is that it gives a certain impression of your romantic nature about how this is going to go.
Possibly unfairly, but the impression sticks.
I'm pragmatic. There is no rose tinted view here. I've been a Brussels negotiator. Brexit will be very hard but I'm taking a long term bet
Fair enough. I simply don't think there's public support for that, and that's a really bad sign for a successful Brexit.
I was driving a tuktuk with roundels 3700 miles across India & we raised £4000 for forces charities. I've also been offered an RN Commission
And that context is *entirely* missing from that photo, which is rather my point regarding credibility.
They appear to be trying to work out a way through this. The UK, on the other hand, is not making any such effort. They're trying to help
Doh because millions of jobs, exports & future investment depend on it! Ffs are you really that thick?
Hahahaha
Not enemies. Competitors. Welcome to the world of modern commerce. Everyone will try and take a piece, even allies.
I don’t fear them. You’re the one claiming our 27 new competitors are “positioning themselves as enemies”. Sounds like fearful talk to me.
It isn't a question of fear. We're better off in than out - that's the whole point of a union.
Everything else #Brexit is even more ugly - like jumping into the abyss
So if you're in a club and someone leaves the club you think acting in the best interest of that club means you are an enemy of the leaver?
They all signed up to this position, letting the UK have concessions does not benefit the other countries anyway
I guess you should look up the definition of "union"
There's no enemy. The EU is a union. There's a clue in the name. Unions protect their members against non-members. Guess which we are now.
they have the power & they choose how much we pay in regards to trade deals you buffoon
Are you comfortable with that @Spencer529? *Stockholm Syndrome*
that comment says more about you than me
sometimes in life, things just are & the #EU27 are one of them
I don't think the EU started this we chose to leave, what did you expect? Them to say sure fine go ahead?
EU is holding all the cards. UK doesn't have anything to bargain with.
All along it's the UK and people like you who have wanted to show up the EU: treating them like enemies so don't play dumb now
We have very few enemies in EU.
Look closer to home where we have a government trying to strip us of our rights and freedoms
Pity @theresamay doesn't see protecting UK citizens as part of her job.
EU setting out their no nonsense position in the face of infantile demands by a petulant 2 year old that is the UK
This is a phenomenonally dense take.
The UK is an insignificant island and expects to get its own way, time to learn the hard way
Depends how biased you are. Impartiality would point you to the fact that it is UK government that have issued threats of becoming tax haven
Nope. They sound like they are being sensible and realistic but the Tories are fantasist zealots.
France then Germany were once enemies and required alliances to defeat them. EU has helped tie us together in peace. It is UK now hostile.
Everyone who tries to inject some reality is an enemy? Why must you have so many enemies? WE are the enemy here, comprehend the situation.
I wouldn't blame the EU if they just told us to fuck off with nothing. Too many people in this country are blinded by our flag.
Because Leavers campaigned on supposed ease with which UK would negotiate beneficial trade deals with EU. Now exposed as utter fantasy.
Sorry, what???? The UK are trying to cover a sledgehammer with a silk glove, but its you and I who will pay
No they are not.
They are simply following an exit process.
The enemy of the UK is unfortunately, the UK.
Strange how Labour agree with trade Unions holding strike threats over Employers but The PM must not threaten the EU Labour put EU first
Why would EU27 do a deal against their own self interest? UK is delusional in what it thinks it can get from Brexit. We are going to lose.
Just because they're not handing you everything you want on a silver platter, they're now the enemy? You can't have your cake AND eat it!
It was uk that decided to leave EU, not other way around, then slated & tried to undermine remaining union. I'm wondering what you expected?
They're not, Rab. Rather May is positioning it that way as she no doubt realises (as a Remainer) the impossibility of a good outcome 4 UK
Therefore generating a breakdown in talks and blaming the foreigners is politically probably the least of the various evils for her
We already presented ourselves as enemy of the EU.
For 100's of years UK foreign policy was to avoid exactly this: Europe becoming a single bloc united against us. Major @Conservatives FAIL
we're the enemy, you uneducated numbnut. Have you understood anything? You're in the same dream world as TM
The UK positioned itself as enemy of EU to be more accurate.
Rab, you have this the wrong way round. May is attempting to play hardball and the 27 are simply pointing out what this means in practice.
Who started the war? We were a union until May called them opponents, Farage calling them the enemy.
A 3rd country. Not enemies.
We started this divorce, they didn't know what they'd done wrong, so can hardly blame them if they dig their heels in
Instead of enemies, just go with "opposition", and try to imagine walking away from a 40-year-old partnership while expecting a pay-rise
Because your "enemies" are your creditors perhaps?
stupid people will say stupid things I suppose?
EU is positioning as defending its interest, u absolute moron
They are not going to say "oh yeah, the UK, so amazing, let's bend to their shit and the lies they peddled to their citizens"
you voted for it without knowing what you were doing
well, this is what you were doing. Welcome to hitting the ground at big speed
and btw, you took a lot of us (EU citizens living in the UK) with your shit without having the good sense of asking what we think about it
let's just fuck 3 million people's lives without allowing them to have a say! what a fun idea!
So to resume
the only enemy here? You and your ill-informed, UK exceptionalism BS ilk.
You are welcome
Agreed,this kind of leak demonstrates bad faith and hostility.Should walk out of EU as soon as she's reelected.No payments,no cooperation
And what will the effect of that be on our economy, Phil?
I hope you can afford bread at £3 a loaf then.
And then what ?
They aren't enemies as such, more like ex-partners and I'm sure you'll know how messy that can be. You Islanders, so quaint.
Yes why bother doing deal let's just see what happens and leave entire population and economy to just languish as politicians sit on hands
Ah the old "if you don't agree with me then your my enemy logic"... the EU has its flaws but UK has been sold a pup...
No, one of the largest economies in the world claims they don't need the EU, invent antagonism to shield themselves from accountability.
You are mentally ill.
Oh my god. Because we have to survive! Do you even realise how vast the amount of trade we do with the EU is? Clearly not.
You are literally stating that Brexit is opposed to the interest of the UK and blaming the EU rather than people who supported Brexit for it
A leap on your part. The EU doesn't even want the UK to leave, hardly the voice of an enemy.
I know who threw the first stone in this "fight" and it was a fight from those who threw the stone. No doubt.
EU is not an 'enemy of the state'. They have to protect member states. UK will be outside that when it leaves. UK has to do deal with EU.
Laugh of the day so far. Oh, wait... he just said 'freezing like a behemoth in the headlights'. Well-known behemoth behaviour, that.
exactly bcs of such comments i hope for a very bad deal for the UK. First u leave and now blame the EU.
Because you have ABSOLUTELY NO CHOICE? Ur in a very weak position, that you put yourself in, but act like ur actually holding aces.
Deluded
if you piss on the EU expect that an enriched wind is blowing in your face, surprised?
Why make them in the first place?
They're putting the interests of their members first. Why on Earth would they do otherwise?
Should our negotiating position be to prioritise the interests of the remaining 27 states ahead of our own?
And, if not, does that mean we are setting ourselves up as enemies of the EU?
Because you can't close deals with other countries if they see you walking away without honouring your commitments.
It was UK's decades of antiEU media & idiotic UKIP MEPs who treated EU as enemy that started this process, finalised by sending Art50 letter
its the other way around, these little englanders are sure a confused bunch
EU positioning itself as EU. Looking after its own interests, why wouldn't they? They aren't walking out, UK's causing the problem not EU.
lol did you really think things would be the same? Really? You'll be locked out of the market, all alone 😥
It seems the UK declared this war with the EU first. Answer this - why should EU to give the UK a good deal?
"Refusing to fuck itself to protect UK from consequences of stupidity of its own voters" = "enemy"? Interesting
Don't be obtuse.
Actually it's the deluded May and her UK lackeys that are painting the EU as enemies, backed up by the tabloids.
I think those who worship at the hardline, dogmatic temple of brexit are the ones hurting our nation.
You seem to forget that it's the uk that's leaving the eu and trying to play hardball (expats, eu bill). What do you expect?
This is simply gross stupidity by WM and we will all suffer because of it.
With the same benefits no less! As an aside, who or what is FAZ?
A system that is so difficult to leave is a system we should never have joined. Glad we are getting out before it becomes impossible.
Where there's a will there's a way!
No thing wrong with that. You are making your own rules up by lying. We could walk in 6mths.
Why back the EU when everything points to it collapsing in two years.Not idle talk but fact. We will get out with or without a deal.
Hi, I'm worried your cat has hijacked your twitter account and is saying daft things
Yup they all said theyd be begging us for a deal
Not barmy at all. The EU can't afford a no deal with no FTD while losing UK contribution while bailing out Greece & Italy etc.
It'll damage both sides - but us worst. So who has the stronger bargaining position?
Germany 2day doesn't want 2bail-out Greece. Germany will b making up lost UK net cont. Italian banks curr bailed out contrary 2EU rules???
The UK will be trading with World which EU don't have to same degree. Sterling covers almost all tariffs 2 EU. EU far harder hit by tariffs.
UK is Free 2 trade 2 WORLD pays £0 to EU. Tariffs go against EU rather than UK. Eurozone fragile. EU locked in2 EU on worse basis. UK ok.
No, without deals (which take years to make) we DO pay to trade with the world. Have you not been listening?
Can you explain please? The UK as outside customs union will have free trade deals around world. Talking now to be signed day after exit?
Of course. We don't get free trade deals automatically. Terms must be negotiated - usually take years, with tariffs. That's hard Brexit risk
USA Australia took 16 months. If u want 2 do trade deals U can. EU not interested in trade inefficient Protectionist so takes yrs or fails.
Ok - takes 16 months with Australia. That's one deal. As EU member we have 27, plus external desks. How many years to regain that? Huge harm
Oops. Deals, not desks!
The UK is more efficient than the EU less Protectionist. UK's interested in trade. The UK will have many deals ready for day after leaving.
How will they be ready? With who? That's wishful thinking. We'll be losing free trade with EU only to face years of tariffs while deals done
Ready because we have 2 years. That's how long they take when you're a normal country and not the EU.
Yes, perhaps. But negotiations are usually one at a time. At your rate we'll be shipping jam to Australia tariff-free in 16 months. Yay
No. No reasoning for that. Unless we only have 3 negotiators.
It takes a whole team to negotiate big trade deals. We currently don't have enough for EU discussion which will take years by itself
UK negotiators have been working for the EU who weren't exactly trade monsters. They can work for UK like LSE & university of Manchester.
No. We actually don't have enough with the skills in UK to do it. We'd need to draft them in. You're naive about the scale of these deals
Don't discount UK knows full terms of EU FTA's & other parties wants! UK meets EU rules. Really a case of making changes where necessary.
But other countries will want better deal than EU one. They know we're desperate to sign. Expect us to be screwed to the floor each time
They will sign because It's good for them. They know the UK will be more free than the EU. UK can actually help liberalise World Trade.
Ha ha, that's so naive. "Free" means dropping environmental protections, opening up our industries. You're in for a shock
The UK FTA's will be equivalent to the existing EU FTA & in some cases more advanced. UK wants 2 trade more than EU.
Will they? Why won't other countries screw us on terms, knowing we now don't have backing of 27 EU nations? Because...?
Same reasons the UK has high overseas investment. Style of economy.
The overseas investment is largely cos of our free access to the EU market! Come on, get real
In reality they don't be new FTA's from scratch.
In past 42 years the EU has mainly concluded agreements with small countries, which have affected only a small proportion of UK exports.
You mean, small countries like the one it's just sealed with Canada? And the one the US wants to do with the EU before the UK?
Yea and the EU will take so long the UK will have a FTA with USA before the EU. Canada took 8 yrs like I say UK has full details of CETA.
No, US won't negotiate with UK and EU at the same time. Do some reading, it's not how this works. Sorry, the goodwill u expect is so naive
So unlike a usual negotiation the UK has full details of Canada's position. It'll be a lot easier. UK today meeting most of Canada's reqs.
But the EU deal is based on 28 countries and Canada. So stronger EU negotiating position. We'll be just one country - so weaker. It's logic
That's naive. The EU Trade deals are about Protecting inefficient industries so it hasn't major trade deals with advanced economies.
And yet we still trade freely with Germany, France etc - two of top five economies. Anyway, we're not going to agree but good to chat
Largest economy the EU has FTA with is Korea, which in 2014 had a GDP of $1.41tn, slightly less than that of Australia. It's not a big prob.
Well, I wish you the best of luck in your dreams. Don't be too disappointed
It will be easy; there will be no negotiation and we will leave on default terms. Subsequent detail borne from pragmatism and necessity.
Ha ha ha! It'll be "easy"! That's utterly divorced from reality. But good luck, hope you're not too disappointed
What not easy about waiting for 2 year deadline to expire ??
Disappointed about what ?? I don't have specific expectation.
Ok. Good for you
All we've heard from EU so far is them sing Merkel's song. Bloc members actually want all sorts of things from relationship with UK.
Keep telling yourself that, keep those fingers crossed that someone will help us. But remember we need a deal more than them.
You keep telling yourself whatever like Ben.
Yes, the did. They all did. Bone headed Tory MPs said you can conclude an FTA "in an afternoon".
Be more attentive, then.
That's what Remain said. Brexiteers called it 'Project Fear' propaganda. When are Brexiteers going to finally twig Leave was based on lies?
Everyone surely knew it would be tricky, but I was shut down by Brexiteers saying 'project fear' and 'stop putting your country down'
Plenty of leavers are still trying to sell the fantasy that brexit will bring prosperity to the UK. It will not
What is striking is how quiet leavers have become now that reality is starting to kick in....
...2 mnths ago any comment not supporting Brexit were greeted by howls of abuse and "what part of Brexit don't you understand?" Very telling
They most certainly did
I'd say 51% of the population thought it would be easy.
Most Brexit voters believe it's easy. Or that it's done already
Yes, lots did and still do. 'Just walk away, they need us'
Yes but not nearly as much as we need them. FFS WAKE UP.
We're making the same point here buddy
Apart from the entirey of the Leave campaign, that is.
Didn't you read that bus? Some of our most prominent politicians said precisely that.
eh the £350,000,000 sign on the side of a bus suggested otherwise. i hope Scotland realises we are about to be shafted before it's too late
Actually many did. And they were dismissed as irrelevant experts. Brexiteers need to get their hands dirty and sort the mess out.
That's what Donald Trump said on America's Health care
But plenty of people said it was worth doing.... Without ever explaining why
No one ever said it would be this hard Oh, take me back to the start
yes, they did. Repeatedly. That's what so many leave voters believed.
Yes they did! Leave side said it wld all be easy. Remember? Bmw would never allow a hard brexit! The UK has now made itself insignificant.
Can we please, please get professional, proven negotiators on board rather than civil servants. Karen Brady where are you ??
Surely the question was never 'is it easy' but 'is it worth it?'. We get into a fight with EU and quickly real goals get forgotten.
But then, I could never for the life of me see any tangible benefits.
Then you weren't listening. Everyone informed, or interested, said this.
And you're channeling ignoramous-in-chief Trump, not a good image.
Actually, loads of people said it was going to be easy. In fact, the Leave campaign made seem like it was going to be straight forward
Yes they did. And they lied, and lied, and lied again. Trade deal, single market, customs union, no fee movement. A pack of lies.
they literally said exactly that
you're talking to people who have memories longer than goldfish here you know
Errr... yes they did. That has been the continuous message from the Brexit crowd from day one. The UK is sovereign - we can just walk.
Err... Davis and May, along with most high-profile exiteers, have *constantly* claimed it was going to be easy. That's exactly the problem.
So why are we doing this at all? Taking huge risk with our futures for what? #happyclappybrexit fantasies unsupported by ANY ACTUAL EVIDENCE
And your evidence for this is???
Oh it's such a shame for us to part 🎶
But shs's denying it's true. Surprise!
"Negotiation of a free-trade deal with the EU will be the easiest negotiation of all time" says @PhilipDaviesMP confidently. :/
Thanks for this summary. From this part of the world it looks like Britain has gone mad
Elected (Tory) MPs are joking about slavery in Parliament. And getting laughs (from Tories) youtu.be/qRgg28EcDro?t=… #GE2017
MP Lucy Frazer Thinks Scots are Slaves!!!
This MP shows what a lot of other English, and Scottish MPs think of the Scots. Time for UDI i say!!! #sudim
youtube.com
Not Britain going mad, just British leaders. Ordinary citizens still too trusting; not used to being so comprehensively lied to.
Also not used to questioning "authority" or believing that they can hold MPs etc to account. Too much victim culture.
To which Scotland voted to stay in the UK. So perhaps not.
On the promise of staying in the EU; things have radically changed
I don't think the EU was part of the vote. It was either stay in or come out
It was a major factor that affected my and many others votes
And then voted to stay in the union. What is your point
That was then. This is now.
Sad but they need to feel some real pain before openening eyes & ears & realise that over the last decades they have been royally screwed
Lol. Remind me, who voted in the referendum, just your leaders or maybe your people too?
By both sides
I wish I still had that much faith in the rest of the country...
I know what you mean. It's terrifying what decades of brainwashing can achieve. But think how far Germany has come since WW2.
Germany don't have the Daily Mail, though.
Exactly my point. In the 1930s, Hitler controlled the press:
Newspapers in Nazi Germany - History Learning Site
Newspapers were greatly used by the Nazi Party to spread the party line. Newspapers were commonly purchased in an era that pre-dated television and along with the cinema and radiowas the primary mode of spreading information – information that the Nazi Party wanted to control. Hitlercame to power on January 30th 1933 and almost immediately …
historylearningsite.co.uk
Oh, I know, I don't really think the UK now and Nazi Germany are comparable, but the influence just three papers can wield is terrifying.
Junge Freiheit (young freedom) fastest growing newspaper in Germany
Sadly, parallels between uk now and Germany in 1930s are many & scary!
The great repeal bill will take you to political position of 1933...
Agree with you totally Steve!
Its the fact that you assume all brexiteers read said papers that caused you to lose the argument & with it the vote last June.
Yeah, that's what did it, thinking the most read papers/visited news sites constantly denigrating the EU might have had some influence...
You don't have to actually read the stuff to be affexted by the miasma it creates.
Excellent point. When is media literacy going to be part of KS1? Pervasiveness of such media is a case of something very broken in education
More importantly, we need civic studies to teach how our political and government systems work, including the role of the EU.
It's also deeply troubling that Parliament as a whole seems to bend itself based on media and online polling, so easily manipulated.
And the BBC? Who are so blatently biased towards remaining in the EU. Tim Farron quotes galore with intentionally negatively spun headlines!
I'd predict that was down to people being lied to and immigration being made into this giant cancer that's killing the country #manipulated
Well that's true. The nonsense some of them were trading on Breitbart etc makes the Daily Mail look like the Lancet.
And there IS an increasingly similar rise in chauvinism and authoritarianism!
"Strong stable govt in the NATIONAL INTEREST" Sound familiar? For GE17, read T May's Enabling Act.
They are comparable. It's time people realised this. It's not 'different.'
Are you seriously comparing a democratic referendum to nazi Germany?
Yes. Hitler was democratically elected. The ambitions may be different, but the tools in use are the same.
"Take back control"
"£350 Million"
"Brexit means Brexit"
"Strong and Stable"
Yep, checks out...
Just you saying yes was enough for me thanks..enjoy your day👍
Me: Our media's pretty bad
Kim: At least it's not government controlled
Steven: DID YOU JUST COMPARE BREXIT TO NAZIS?
If your going to quote me dead Steve then please quote me correctly..good lad 👍
Now Germany is back in charge of europe. Note that Juncker reported back to Mutti straight after meeting
I imagine Junker felt the need to touch base with someone sane.
Imagine all you like. Greater Germany is in charge
I imagine you imagine a lot more about Germany than I do.
Please stay in that fantasy world. You'll find reality too upsetting
I've been to Germany. It was very nice, the people were lovely and welcoming. Please tell me more about this "reality" of which you speak...
I'm sure that's true. just pointing out Merkel, not EU, invited immigrants, ordered payments to Turkey, bankrupted Greece
That payment to Turkey was to help them with refugees - not immigrants - like the ones Germany accepted. Also Greece isn't bankrupt.
Oh dear. The point is that Merkel decided, not the eu. Please keep up. The eu dances to merkel's tune
I was about to ask if you really thought one woman had that much influence over the EU then remembered you thought she bankrupted Greece...
Personalities are irrelevant. Germany is in charge. Germany dictated the terms of the Greek "bailout". Are you unaware of their plight?
No, I'm fully aware, that's how I know they're not bankrupt and their economy is actually growing, along with every other EU nation's.
Is that why they have had to sell off most of their national assets to (predominantly) German and Russian corporations?
Here's the EU's own data about all the financial assistance Greece has received. Weirdly, no mention of Russia...
Financial assistance to Greece
Information on the stability support programme, its implementation and reviews in Greece.
ec.europa.eu
Tell that to the Greek pensioners
Greece cooked its own books to get into the Euro. Austerity is wrong solution, but can understand other countries being cross.
Unlike the USA, the EU did not consolidate the debt of all the states. It will be the reason it will fail as a project.
All of the southern economies are suffering. Germany refused to consolidate their debt when EU was set up.
The Daily Mail is the Fleet Street equivalent of Volkischer Beobachter.
In the 1930's the Daily Mail actually trumpeted Hitler's achievements. Fascist to the core.
They do they have Der Bild, only difference Germans read it for a laugh & buy it together w The Frankfurter or Suddeutche Zeitung
Bingo!!!!
Not for he last 70 years anyway.
No but the Daily Mail has been a fascist propagandist rag for many years
Can we throw it into #Brexit negotiations? They can have it.
They'd probably pay us to keep it.
Come on they wouldn't want it.
The assets must be worth something 😁. Employee some actual journalists and you could have a decent useful newspaper.
To TARNISHED.
They still have @BILD.
They do. It's called Bild.
Germany are finished as a nation with Merkel in control. Overwhelmed with cultural enrichment.
See, the brainwashing works on many people. ☝
It's certainly worked on you, you've swallowed the Kraut philosophy hook line, and sinker.
You'll be telling me next that Merkel didn't let in a million migrants to rape the women, and terrorise the population. Cologne ???
🙄 You do realise that the German rape stories were fake news?
Refugee Rape Mobs on New Year's Eve Were a Hoax, Say German Police
Reports of mass New Year's Eve sexual-assaults by refugees in Frankfurt, Germany, are "completely baseless."
reason.com
Of course they were, those women who complained to the police obviously fabricated their complaints.
Who's being brainwashed now by the left wing German police.
*sigh* Believe what you want. *muted*
Reports of German towns being terrorised by the interlopers abound. Too many different sources for them to be false.
Keep going mate, you've still got "Remoaners", "unelected Brussels bureaucrats" and "you lost, get over it" to get to yet!
I agree it's terrifying what brainwashing does, just look at the EU indoctrinated lefty education system for the last 40 years.
I know, imagine believing there have been no more world wars because of the stability brought about by a continental economic union...
All that brainwashing about not being racist, being tolerant of LGBT, caring for the planet and stuff. Not cricket, old boy. 🙄
Human rights? Pfft!
...and where UK would be without the EU! Just look back in the late sixties
Why stop there, why not keep going until we hit the late thirties and early forties?
Had to undergo serious period of national renewal & change, unlike UK which seems still to be hankering after 'glory' days of 19th century
I know. I'm still hoping we can avoid the same tough time.
We shouod be
We seem with some justification, not to be able to trust any of our politicians, not just leaders.
I think you're wrong. People are people; nations don't become more stupid, they become more manipulated by those with few morals.
Those ordinary citizens were quite happy to believe that 1. The UK is some superpower 2 foreigner are the source of all your problems
If nothing else Brexit will shrink your ego as well as your wallets
We bloody should be and it's the media to blame!
I think they *are* used to it. That's why so many people do not vote. There's nothing democratic about choosing a candidate based on lies.
Believe you me - as Scots - we are well used to WM lying to us
not used till being lied to? That's a joke right?
Perhap I should have said "…have not yet learned how to detect and reject the lies"?
Reading all of this thread, it is All so alarming: the arrogance & sadness/despair that drove the daft referendum to where we are now:oh god
Or still so used to being comprehensively lied to they do not detect lies at all 😟
Michael Dougan absolutely right: "Leave Campaign lied on an industrial scale" - where does it stop?
We have always been lied to. Where have you been living. All countries the same.
No, it's different now. Somehow, it feels like a line has been crossed.
Could be these lies are ones that particularly don't suit you. Blair war lies were pretty co sequential.
Perhaps the Iraq war was the time when the 'reasonably honest' line was first crossed. And Blair was voted back in…
Oh, the poor ignorant voters, they just can't understand...
How condescending.
That's exactly what I *didn't* say. The poor, honest, honourable voters have been conned by some immoral and very sophisticated liars.
Yes! Let's not forget all the lies & the culprits are leaving the stinking mess of the sinking ship!
Apparently Junker was drunk, rude and offensive. These are the people YOU want to govern us Kim. So pleased you LOST the referendum.
A bit slow then. When was the last gvt that didn't lie?
Incompetent.
UK has gone May!!
From this part of the world too
from this part of the world even more so
From this part of the worl, which is coincidentally the UK, it looks like the UK has gone mad,
There's a difference between mental illness and wilful ignorance.
Very true and poorly chosen word on my part. It's as if a political fantasy has replaced paying attention to the world as it is
Tabloids putting poison in public ear for two decades, plus economic illiteracy. How to act rationally on utterly bogus info?
Most of the world, including half of Europe are not in the EU. It's corrupt, protectionist. Only a few of 28 nations net contributors.
Are you... Are you really a dog?
It looks like that in the UK too... #NotinMyNameArt50
Yes, from the neck down; thank God Scotland is the head and brains - we're leaving the arse-end to shit on itself
Half of it, at least.
A quarter of it (just over half that voted) on June 23 2016. Maybe slightly less since. Focus on the drivers tho, and it's no mere madness.
52% were mad to believe the lies by the Leave campaigns, but the tide's turning. Which is why Brexiteers are terrified of an #EUref2! ;-)
That often misused statement "the lunatics have taken over the asylum" is actually correct here in uk
looks the same from inside, believe me...
you'd be right to think that!
"Little Britain" has. People thinking this will end well must be permanently drunk
Not a matter of perspective. Looks the same from here.
Rather shocked by the incompetence of British politicians.
England and Wales went daft. The rest of us just in the runaway train driven by morons.
Not all of us. There are a great many as despairing of this utter nightmare as the rest of the sane world. #brexitshambles #Catastrophe
You say gone? Has been mad for a generation.
Agreed, but I'd remove Scotland, London, NI, and Gibraltar from 'Britain'. More here:
A People Betrayed
Gibraltar, British territory since 1713, doesn’t count itself a ‘corner of a foreign field forever England’. The people are of one mind, furious, incensed, enraged. They detest th…
grousebeater.wordpress.com
Well put and it's worrying to be living through it
From every part of the Galaxy it looks like Britain has gone mad
Disagree. Instead of respecting democracy & working with Britain, Juncker & his cronies are, quite frankly, being a right bunch of cunts.
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
England....not Scotland and Northern Ireland
Not just UK: Philippines, US, France on the way...I remember Brexit and Phils. being such bad examples that the US surely wldn't vote Trump.
Fascinating and pretty worrying. Could you put this together in just one post? It would be easier to follow.
Absolutely incredible. You couldn't make it up.
Pretty clear really. Things have drastically changed from what was voted on in the 70's.
If this was a bank we'd be claiming ppi issues!
How does this get into the public domain in a well covered way? Most MSM won't publish or air it.
Frankfurter Allgemeiner Zeitung is MSM
Yes but not many Brits read it...
British press will pick it up...eventually.
Only the guardian or mirror would touch it though
Or @TheEconomist theec, whose correspondent started this thread....
I meant the mainstream/everyday media. I respect the Economist for publishing this but so few will see it, relatively speaking.
I know you did, I just wanted to give @JeremyCliffe well deserved credit.
Very well deserved.
Interestingly @TheEconomist has circulation 10 times larger than @guardian . That is, of course, only 1 measure if how many people read t
I didn't realise, always happy to learn something new. Still wish there was a way to make it an everyday talking point.
I would recommend 1. talking about it, and 2. not using "mainstream media" or "MSM" when you do, so that people take you seriously.
has done a great job of picking it up for Forbes as well.
In fairness @faisalislam of Sky picked up on it too
Unfortunately true....
It'll be in @PrivateEyeNews I'll bet. That has a huge circulation.
The problem is that once MSM get hold of it it will be transformed into jingoistic us vs them headlines containing references to WW2!
No, @guardian won't touch. Brexit aside, they're closer to May's Tories than Corbyn's Labour at present. @Independent might pick it up.
Plus New European. But as Leavers r in a #BrexitAtAnyCost mindset,u cld smuggle it on2 front of @Telegraph / @DailyMailUK &it wld make 0diff
actually it'd been picked up by the telegraph
Jean-Claude Juncker calls Theresa May 'deluded' after disastrous Brexit talks
The European Union has warned that it is "more likely than not" that Brexit talks will fail after Jean Claude Juncker accused Theresa May of being "deluded" in the wake of a tense Downing Street dinner.
telegraph.co.uk
With the usual Telegraph twist.
where do they twist it?
By putting deluded in inverted commas! 😉
okay, I guess - could just be quoting though
Dont hold your breath
Do not hold your breath. Unlikely to be covered factually like this in any tabloid.
Forbes has a first article on it (expecting more to follow once they analysed the print page of FAZ fully):
The UK Government Is Completely Deluded About Brexit
A German newspaper has revealed that Theresa May's dinner with European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker last Wednesday was a total disaster. Leaked details of the proceedings show the extent of the breakdown in relations. No-deal Brexit now looks likelier than ever.
forbes.com
Only if they really, really want to. Misery is manna from heaven for the msm.
YOU need to share it & spread the word! If it goes viral, *maybe* the (right wing, propagandist) British press will be unable to ignore it.
Unfortunately I'm no Twitter biggie...
Pick it up, and then hide it.
Like they picked up the last Anti-Brexit demonstrations?
may be worth going onto the various Facebook groups as well
So it's only "MSM" if Brits read it?
(Possibly sensitive)
go on talk back radio, ask local MPs, councillors, business groups, MEP questions directly and publicise their replies
Twitter!
YOU need to share it and spread the word!
What's the story?
May's approach to foreigners hasn't got beyond talking loudly & expecting them to do as they're told. (Sunday Times)
we are so screwed
quite frankly, I'm frightened.
Quite frankly, I'm frightened for you and for America as well.
Sounds frightening , I'm so sorry for Britain. In my mind, you belong to all the countries in Europe, should stay part of EU! Remain!
She's a psychopath. Their is a Yougov poll asking I if people think we need a strong leader who doesn't have to answer to parliament
may and the Tories are showing themselves to be a direct threat to democracy. Their is also sources stating she is under investigation
Media is helping them push us straight in that direction. It is terrifying
We're not like Turkey. Is the govt rounding up opponents, closing newspapers or blocking Wikipedia? Accept not everyone shares your views.
telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/1…
theguardian.com/world/2016/nov…
Just a couple recent examples of draconian actions by current govt.
'Extreme surveillance' becomes UK law with barely a whimper
Investigatory Powers Act legalises range of tools for snooping and hacking by the security services
theguardian.com
Then you need to read less. We are nothing like Turkey.
*There
I know it autocorrected
A couple of times..you might want to get that looked at 👍
It's as if the whole world is going nuts - democracies shifting to insular nationalism - a bitter regression that doesn't bode well.
Plus, she sounds a bit like the disgraceful asshole we have in the WH right now. Except smarter - not difficult to do.
"threat to democracy"??? BREXIT WAS DEMOCRACY IN ACTION - suck it up.
For conflict of interest due to the investment fund her husband works for making billions from brexit
Seems majority are ok with that.
YouGove is privately owned by a staunch Tory. I take every 'poll' of theirs with a pinch of salt. Clever name to make it sound official.
That any poll should ask such a question in any country is extremely concerning.
Really? It's almost as if May/Davies intended it to be leaked. Noise signifying nothing.
They would not have given it to the FAZ. More likely the Times. This is Merkel signaling.
front page of Sunday times yesterday
Yes, the point is this is still posturing on both sides.
Thread was suggesting it wasn't being reported in U.K. Press
Gov posturing as a group of naive and deluded idiots who have no idea what they're doing. That's the plan?
Posturing. Press leak to undermine tories in election to weaken her position. Wake up people
The Tories have undermined their own position, not the leak. It anybody needs to wake up it's May. She's dreaming.
Nah. Leak by eu. Set up.
Yes, it's very clearly a leak. It's the contents of the leak that should worry you. Not the leak itself.
If you believe the contents. This is counter to malmstrom statement. Too many remoaners looking to believe.
Oh. Big conspiracy, huh? Seems like you're looking to believe quite a few things too.
it's a one source leaked anecdotal account
Not posturing, now a complete fabrication? Yep. This account doesn't ring true. It's clear May and gov really have the EU against the ropes!
No one said that. You implied the opposite was true just based upon one report now discredited. There will be lots of ups and downs for all
As it will likely be for another approx 20 months.
lots of real work being done by civil servants/diplomats
this will in many ways be a bottom up process, boring but fruitful
Indeed. What we're reading this weekend is posturing headline stuff, not the actual substance.
How old is this kid?
Interesting thread. Wonder how much coverage this will get in the national dailies this week.
None, despite what we think, appears UK does not have a free press- investigation into Tory MPs case in point!
Another nail on the head. Tell you what. All the sensible English move up here and assist with Indy2.
I must say I did enjoy my brief stay in Edinburgh last month.
yeuch! Wrong coast! 😜
Tempting ❤️any jobs for an NHS Overseas Manager? #justasking 😉
What about the Welsh? :)
That was my next tweet. 😉
...and Welsh.
None in the British nationals, I'm willing to bet
Beggars belief. Literally.
But apart from those minor points, what's your problem with Boudica?
to be retweeted. People must know to what extent she is delusional.
Awesome
🚨[Irony alert]: nothing about any of that sounds strong and stable.
You mean there was going to be a positive outcome reported by Commission sources? Okay then.
She a) triggered A50 8 months too soon b) May, Davies, Johnson and Fox are deluding themselves and us this can be concluded in 2 years #Joke
(No comment)
Oh Jesus.
It just gets worse but you can't stop reading...
The UK these days is like watching a train slowly going off the track at high speed but there is nothing you can do to stop it.
This is not an example of a 'strong and stable' leader-It is of someone in total denial of reality and facts on the ground
Literally in disbelief
Yes, but Thatcher knew what she was doing. May hasn't a clue.
link?
Can I suggest we replace May and Davis with someone who has the UK's interests at heart?
If only they were competent negotiators who respected their Office, the UK and its citizens, rather than their own self interests.
But you are quite happy the other way? You lot are so colour blind.
I know this will seem crass, but fuck the Brits. Colonialists for so long and still retaining a belief they're important. Good luck.
Heartbreaking reading this because you're absolutely right, but what are half of us to do when our voices aren't heard? Just leave?
48% of us at least want to remain within Europe so please don't say fuck the brits.
But our govt and half the population (lied to by press) are deluded about this. I'd want to say fuck the brits if I was in the EU
Yes, I agree. And to be honest the schadenfreude of watching a total failure in my own country is rather delicious but sad at the same time.
Why are people who voted Brexit deluded? Just accept they have a different view than you & get out & vote for party that shares your views
Read the whole of the original thread, it explains the gulf between brexiter's expectations of brexit and the reality
I did. With my face fully in palm.
Those Brits should already be looking for a way to retain individual priveleges in the EU, like Estonia's e-citizanship. May will screw you.
No it doesn't seem crass. It is crass.
Hardly surprising or undeserved though. I'm English & I despair for country & of fellow countrymen 1
So not surprising when others see us as completely arrogant fuckwit isolationists intent on destroying our reputation & economy 2
and all over an internal @Conservatives party political squabble.
A party that currently is demonstrably not fit to govern. 3
Not the Brits; right wing Tories & their supporters. Very best estimate 52%.
Yes, appalling arrogance & sense of imperialist entitlement from so many UK "leaders" & pop. I was born here & it sickens me & many others.
Sorry that the elite few who run this country have made you feel this way. We're not all bad you know! #Scotland #ToriesOut
Sounds exactly like EUs attitude, you're right in step.
😂 pathetic.
"Experience is a hard school but fools will learn no other"
What does FAZ stand for please?
Frankfurter Allgemeiner Zeitung, big German broadsheet.
The logic of PM's red lines (no ECJ and no freedom of movement) may leave little to be discussed -> WTO exit then years to neg trade deal
My biggest fear - EU don't waste their time "negotiating" with someone who has no sense of the problems.
I think they already are negotiating. Right now they are trying to communicate their red lines to Leave supporters, who have some fantasies
That is very delicately put. Problem is over last 10 months she's sacked anyone in govt who doesn't agree with her, so no sounding boards.
I share your fear that Leave & PM won't see reality until it's too late. Difficult because every conversation descends into slanging match
I've been blocked twice today! One was a lady who told me Art 50 had been rewritten since June to make it more difficult for UK to leave! 🤦
😂twice! Well done 😄 I think the big question there is why do so many think the EU is "evil" "fascist" "never to be trusted" etc
I think this close to the heart of why they believe incredible things and also why they don't care about the economic cost: it's "worth it"
You open up a wound for me! I was 20 in 1975 - the year of full membership. Trained as secretary linguist with German & French & so was ...
a total Europhile. Hard for my parents at first who at my age lost their friends in WW2 - were fighting my friends' parents. But they ...
realised the way to end war was to have peaceful relations & made the leap & welcomed them into their home. As a little girl, I remember ...
the Berlin wall going UP. Had friends whose g'parents were in East when they were in the West. Remember Russian tanks going into Cz in 68 ..
so I see the EU as the EU27 see the EU - there never to allow that to happen again. But UK is an island or several and see EU very ...
differently, as a playground for their summer holidays or a football team which plays out their war fantasies. EU business has never been...
taken seriously by media, politicians or public, and the victim mentality has grown up of "them" inflicting laws on "us", forgetting we ...
all have votes for MEPs. So, a bit long, but you asked. That's what I think happened, but how to resolve it is a different matter. These ...
are beliefs deeply held by people who don't ask a lot of questions or think things through. I grieve deeply though, for what will be lost.
I think many really hate austerity, multinational corporations and neoliberalism. But they've been conned into blaming the EU
Yes, it's a scapegoat. There's no doubt that the UK decision shook the EU in the first instance, because it made it look weak to Putin et al
but I think now it will strengthen their resolve to succeed, come what may. Have you seen this film via @EUCouncil ?consilium.europa.eu/en/news/histor…
It's like school in the old days when they made you stand outside the door until you stopped whatever disruptive behaviour you were up to...
UK has bumped along but austerity & cuts made some think they don't rely on anyone. The revenues come from ppl in international business.
Yes, and they are getting up & leaving for Dublin, Frankfurt, Amsterdam etc who are pitching like crazy for their tax income, intellect, etc
May said yesterday the 1% are paying more tax than ever. New ideas needed to help communities sustain themselves. Not importing lamb fm NZ!
May DIDN'T say that this poor, heavily-taxed 1% have got approximately 90% of the wealth though, did she!
TAX THEM EVEN MORE!
She is getting away with it at the moment. The death tax is probably one way to do it but needs to be others e.g. tax unearned income more.
Driving around central & Eastern Europe now, passing though abandoned border posts, makes me love the EU project, even with its many flaws
Absolutely. When I saw Donald Tusk, almost in tears, saying he had spent half his life in a Communist country, it really brought it home.
That the utter destruction of Europe in war was the core reason to create the EU has been forgotten by so many of us now.
Did you just reply to your own sock account?
What I find saddest is the myth that 'people weren't told the truth'. Macmillan, Heath and others were completely open about it. E.g. 1975:
Only if you consider previous European wars to have been caused by competition over resources. Highly debatable.
At a party somebody once said to me (about that), “We need an EU to prevent Germany and France for starting another war?
A wonderful and heartbreaking thread.
Thank you. x
So disappointing to read tweets like this.
The 52%, now over 70% are not stupid.
The EU is far, far from selfless. 👇
The EU is a bully
The EU is a bully, according to Yanis Varoufakis, the former Greek finance minister, in an interview with this newspaper.
telegraph.co.uk
Why should we believe ANY economist? WM to stick Barnett up their pipe. I'd prefer destitution and a free Scotland to WM boot on my neck.
the government has spent years blaming it for all their shortcomings.
I think Brits' inability to speak other languages makes us very defensive about foreigners. Only the posh & migrants learn second languages
Whereas our "elected" leaders at Westminster are...? Answers on a postcard.
Ordering people to retake a referendum because they produced wrong result was stuff of dystopian novels until the EU put it into practice
No, people do change their minds. That's why referenda are never good in the first place. But you can see now, public opinion is shifting.
And the EU did not call the referendum. The British government did.
Denmark - Maastricht treaty - forced retake, Ireland - Nice and Lisbon treaties - EU forced retake. If retakes OK why not have 3rd, 4th ?
If that's what it takes, yes. It cd swing the other way then. But that's why it should be an election issue not a referendum. As it is now.
"If that's what it takes"! EU-fans mindset like homo sovieticus. btw 38% of Europe is in Russia. The EU is definitely NOT Europe.
Because of the drip drip of right wing press for the last 30 years. Boris lies (straight bananas etc) have been etched into national psyche
And because there is not enough critical analysis taught in schools.
Perhaps you need reminding of how the EU treated Greece.
Greece applied to join EU and accepted terms. Interesting to see where they are now. Didn't leave/get thrown out. Worked it out unlike UK..
Where are they now? Still suffering from crippling austerity.
As long as the rich escape taxes, that will be the way UK goes.
Britain was "the poor man of Europe" when it joined in 1973. Things change. It takes time.
I still have people almost daily trotting out the easily checked lie the EU accounts have not been signed off for 20 yrs. How do you argue?
Couple of links:
bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politi…
ec.europa.eu/budget/news/ar…
EU itself and BBC. Pretty reliable. Get naysayers to produce evidence...
Reality Check: Has the EU had its accounts signed off? - BBC News
Leave campaigners claim the EU has not had its accounts signed off for 20 years. Are they right?
bbc.co.uk
Good point!
Because they can't be look what they did to Greece & Cyprus
Because it is not Brittania anymore which rules the world.
Or the waves. But absolutely you are right.
what ypunjust described there is the uk under the torries.
Not many. Just #Brextremists. Now only polling c7%.
...how will you survive without her?
Currently slashing my wrists in my £25,000 shed! 😂🇪🇺
He's bought the darned thing 7 years too late!
The level of misunderstanding how the EU works is just astounding. Not just UK, all over EU. We might need a "I'm just a bill" videos on yt
There you go, via @EUCouncil
consilium.europa.eu/en/news/histor…
Get your hanky out...
They get cross when you ask for evidence or sources.
The problem is the eu
I just can't understand who would actually vote for her. She's done nothing but sever good ties with the UK and double it's national debt.
Well apparently half the country according to the "polls". But only invited guests ever turn out to see her or know where she is. 😶
EU have to negotiate. Economies will collapse without the UK payment and access to UK market. More to lose than UK
It's a red line laid down by people who don't understand why you need an independent court in international trade; it's very naive
WTO is fine
The "red lines" are what were voted for: supremacy of UK Law/courts & Parliamentary democracy, no customs union imposition, border control
Almost nobody believes that Brexit negotiations will be completed in 2 years. EU is famously slow in negotiations.
more delusion. Le Pen won't even be close. What then? Pin your hopes on Merkel being ousted? NL, Fr & GE not so stupid..
"briefed by senior commission sources" #pinchofsalt
Excellent reporting, many thanks @JeremyCliffe Could you please tell us the title in German and author of Article ?
Many thanks, Excellent read
Perhaps this is correct, perhaps not. We will get a deal or we will walk. Games are for children.
Walking away with no deal wld be the worst possible scenario for the UK, a disaster both economically and socially - do you not grasp that??
Only 48% of us I'm afraid.
No I don't.
Wow two Jeremy's and both are thick as fuck liars
Interesting thread. No deal is sounding good
Don't be sorry for the long thread. Informative and confirms what a lot of us already knew.
Nothing to worry about, it appears we're in safe hands.
Is this childish leak supposed to make us think the UK is better off being run by Juncker in an ever closer union? Get real!
It's not childish. It does however give cause for concern no?
Yes it is childish.
No you are
Well I respect your opinion. I appears to me to have been a dinner conversation with very serious implications for us all, but there you go.
I'm confused on how it's childish to want to let people know how poorly prepared our leaders are for the times ahead
No, it's supposed to make you think that maybe, just maybe, things are not gonna be the bed of roses May is trying to sell you
We always knew the EU would be obstinate. It's kinda why we had to leave.
That juncker who encouraged tax avoidance and blocked investigations into it. No wonder people think the eu cook the books
Sources?
(Possibly sensitive)
Great. As we are at whataboutism at its best, what about this:
Tax haven UK? It already is... - Tax Justice Network
There has been much talk of the threats from the British Chancellor to turn the UK into a full-blown tax haven post-Brexit if the European Union doesn’t give it a good trade deal. We discussed ‘Brexit threats’ in our January podcast. Now our Director Alex Cobham has written an article for Politico on how, contrary …
taxjustice.net
hardly factual. is it?
Google "european commission anti-fraud office"
Google "Brexit lies". So what?
Tax avoidance wasn't invented in Luxembourg. Inform yourself.
stop trying to muddy the waters. are you a politician?
what brexit lies? you just didnt read the small print.
Google "EU Santer Commission corruption"
EU auditors refuse to sign off more than £100billion of its own spending
telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews…
and many many more
EU auditors refuse to sign off more than £100billion of its own spending
Critics attack the EU for demanding that David Cameron pays a £1.7 billion bill despite an official audit failing to give a clean bill of health to more than £100 billion of Brussels spending
telegraph.co.uk
You're overestimating JCJ's influence. Politicians are politicians and they are using and abusing their power. On both sides.
you didnt get the reply you wanted Did you? JCJ makes Sep Blatter look honest.
Biased reporting and a shame you don't highlight this..do your job
This FAZ article covers some but not all of the points made (you may need to be a subscriber to get full version)
Brexit: EU-Kommission befürchtet Scheitern der Verhandlungen
In Brüssel hält man ein Scheitern der Gespräche für wahrscheinlicher als einen Erfolg. Die britische Regierungschefin May stellte bei einem Treffen mit Kommissionschef Juncker aus EU-Sicht vollkommen überzogene Forderungen.
faz.net
I don't know if it's worth saying to anyone who can't get at this, if you right click and 'view image' you can zoom in and read the text.
(I didn't realise that Twitter doesn't shrink uploaded images until now.)
scary stuff
Blimey!
Thank you for tweets. I just hope that May's staggering hubris and ignorance bring her down before she brings the UK down.
So do I for your sake. Watching these 2 parallel train wrecks, Drump & May, from the sidelines of Estonia, fills me with dread.
And of course, the leaks from the EU are entirely unbiased and unvarnished. Every single point here is self-serving.
yes an "approved" leak by SENIOR officials (nameless)
Historically, Jun(c)kers never fared well when dropping bombs on England.
(No comment)
Well, either Theresa May knows something we all don't or she is just thick as pig shit.
May delusional.If she wants deal on single market etc look at Norway and Switz. Both have deals but sign up to EU law and pay into budget
...which is what leave side said we could do before referendum. Changed their tune a bit haven't they?
Stiles me she is doing what we require. J-C J was never going to brief a good meeting it's not in EU interest
This is a fascinating thread on BREXIT worth reading.
Dresses like Nosferatu......
And Uncle Bulgaria.
News coming out of Brussels and Germany skewed. Thread doesn't even touch U.K. pressure points on EU, very one sided
"The Economist" has turned very one sided over the last 2 years
ECommunist
c'est encroyable
The inmates have indeed taken over the asylum.
David Cameron thought he could pacify the inmates by throwing them a referendum-bone. The rest is farcical-tragic history.
I think history will accept the narrative that the Tories impoverished Britain over a party squabble. I don't the assessment will be kind.
Not exactly a neutral source, is it?
And the majority of the UK press are neutral??
Why would you think the EU wouldn't react like that? May even said so herself pre referendum! 'In a stand-off between Britain and the EU...'
Whether it's neutral is not relevant if it's an accurate account.
Is there such a thing as neutrality?
Which FAZ report is that?
Which article?
She then went on to say "Nobody knew #brexit would be so complicated".
Hehe. I love the Trump reference.
See? Germans have humour too.
We are aware of that, but we thought all the humorous ones were over here - i.e @henningwehn
I'm thinking of moving to the UK after my next term to enjoy shitty healthcare and bad labour laws.
And there's more. Obviously you haven't heard about our gridlocked roads and delapidated schools.
The healthcare in NHS Scotland is very good. Could be outstanding if we get independence. We could make our own labour laws. 😉😉😉
Wow. 162 years since Sydney Smith and it still It requires a surgical operation to get a joke well into a Scotch understanding.
'No need to be nasty' you said! We know it won't be easy...but it will be so worth it.
Ach Angela... bei Dir ist da niemand im Zweifel.
Saints preserve us!
An article entirely based on leaks and briefs by the EU commission. Can see why Remoaners are wetting themselved
A 'must read' thread...
The Age of transparency is signaling the end for Whitehall long grass tactics.
This thread is very good.....
Here's the link to thread about @theresa_may 's disastrous dinner
Why is any of this a surprise? The uk was never going to get an easy ride and EU starting point would always be a v tough one.
Damning and terrifying. May is leading the UK into an utter disaster.
Thank you Jeremy- proper journalism.
link to May dinner thread.
The EU has never been practical or diligent only on pensions for themselves
More like 3 countries telling 25 what else to think or else #graveytrainbroken
It's 'gravy', not 'gravey'. You've never cooked, have you?
Sunday and no coffee what can I say
Also cud be discribed as 1 country (UK) making demands of 27 others?
one of whom being the UK, usually. (And even then, no, it doesn't really work like that)
What good will EU be without its second biggest net contrubuter? The EU is a financial basket case as it is. Also what if
Le Pen wins?
EU Comission sources conducting info operations through German media. UK Remain supporters swallow whole without question. What a surprise..
Who benefits from this? The Germans? Reading the DM, the main compliant seems to be DE is top dog already
It's about the EU 27, not Germany per se. Aim is to pressure, discredit & undermine UK Gov. Will be relentless now until talks collapse.
I read and hear a different view point. Many people are sad to be loosing the UK's input and guidance....
Should remain very close, but independent & self governing UK. EU won't accept that, spoiling for a fight/trial of strength. Will end badly.
Spoiling for a fight vs believing in what the stand for??? It will be interesting to watch
They believe in money & centralized power, the rest is bread & circuses. Empires expand or die, EU has no fixed external border for a reason
Exactly and so many saps thinking that they're a fluffy force for the good of humanity, see Spain, see Greece, see spiteful Brexit attitude!
Agreed it will be interesting!
.....and with Boris, they don't need to discredit anyone
Notable by his absence... for the best I think!
EU objective is no deal, intent is intimidation of the 27 publics. Unity through fear: 'Look what happened to Brits..' DM ref's irrelevant.
Again, I see it the other way. The UK leaving will cause the EU27 pain. I think it's the Torys plan "to have their cake and eat it".....
....but then I guess this is dependent on where one sits in the argument
Close relations but outwith the EU institutions is UK aim. EU fixated on UK being 'worse off'. Pride comes before a fall... So unnecessary!
That's where words have been twisted, "cannot be as good as membership" was the term used....
....it was the same expression used in Dutch, French and German language papers, I checked
Think Hollande was more explicit. UK must leave SM so obvs different to membership, but beware building barriers for EU to U.K. cap' markets
No apology needed. Useful insight
If you are worried about #Brexit , May and her gang of #Brexiteers read this thread
Even if this is only partly accurate ... shit! @theresa_may is taking this Faaauuking bus off a mighty tall cliff
Will Economist still be endorsing Tories I wonder @JeremyCliffe?
After all they have very effectively trashed the country, have they not?
Good question. Reply @JeremyCliffe ???
So much for our strong and stable leader, making a fool of herself again. Allowing herself no room for manoeuvre, ignoring reality
Realities change
Free Movement - compromised
Schengen - compromised
Dublin Agreement - compromised
Labour pls offer ppl chance for 2nd EU ref on final deal. Pledge in manifesto then ppl will support-most want s/m-support NHS.Not too late!
I get feeling every time I hear Davies speak,he thinks its alll"one big joke"The future is extremely worrying.UK can't have all its own way!
Good work. Thank you
There's a lot of top level leaking to press ahead of this election.
What is FAZ and is this published anywhere?
"They talked past each other'
Conservative daily newspaper in Germany. Considered newspaper of record, trustworthy and of exceptional journalistic quality.
That's depressing...
'Briefed by senior commission sources.'...enough said.You spent all that time writing tweets for nothing.
This is why you are fighting brexit.
Please don't stop: reality is coming.
Seems like not only we have a crap negotiator, the EU may be determined to make it difficult; not to say it's not naturally difficult.
EU dirty tricks
Absolutely remarkable.
Except answers aren't coming or likely from the UK govt. Read items 8 and 9 on this thread. Read the lot, it's astonishing.
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