Microsoft is the only company trying bold new ideas to push desktop/laptop hardware and software forward.
And we make fun of them. We say PCs are the past.
Meanwhile, 8 years into the tablet era, the vast majority of us still do the vast majority of our work on PCs and Macs.
Maybe THIS crazy idea from Microsoft won’t take off.
We say the same thing every time. Surface. Pro. Studio. But an ever-growing set of people love them.
Eventually, one of them WILL take off, and Apple will still be at square one because it thought the Mac was done forever.
Hearing you on @macpowerusers rattle off that list: 1. YES on all of it 2. Were you working off of notes? It sounded like it was just pouring out of your brain, but still organized. Time to turn it into a Marco.org post?
We’re probably already at the point where almost the only thing making some of the Apple products ‘stick’ is the exceptional catalogue of third-party software. I’d give serious thought to one of the surface book family otherwise.
We bought 100 of them, deployed 50 to a pilot group... half of the pilot deployment group had pretty consistent hardware issues within a 6 month period... the other 50 sitting new in box were bought back by MS. So yeah, that was a fun year-long derailment.
What’s your point? Also, debatable given how poorly that device sold. I’d say the declining iPad sales led to more innovation on Apple’s side. The iPad fundamentally did not copy the concept of the Surface. No hybrid OS. Not a mixed laptop / tablet.
The idea of attaching a keyboard to a tablet never existed until Surface. Also, the original Surface ran Windows RT, so there's no hybrid OS.
The iPad Pro fundamentally copied the original Surface. And that's fine.
I would say it's dubious—at best—to claim the idea of attaching a keyboard to a tablet didn't exist before the Surface. Remember, the lead time on Apple products is generally years, not months. Apple almost certainly had prototypes with attached keyboards years and years ago.
Microsoft is winning the serious tablet user game because you can actually use it with real pro apps in real working Windows, if the Pencil worked with a Macbook Pro somehow it would be amazing but apparently that’s too obvious 🙄
How many Surface units do they ship?
At the point they killed off Windows Phone it was selling far more units than current Surface shipments. They could give up and pull the plug on the failed Surface project at any time - just like Google recently killed off Pixel tablets
They already are; their bank balance is obscuring that reality. It is so disappointing to hear such consistently negative complaints about Apple's product offering in tech circles across so many different fields. But it's there, and it's growing. Alternatives are getting better.
As a windows user, I feel like apple has lit a fire under Microsoft's butt that we thank you for. I feel sorry that you guys aren't getting love anymore, Hopefully one of these msoft products does take off big time and we can repay the favour.
Been using Windows at work for some time now since rejecting a new MacBook Pro. I have a Xeon based mobile workstation and Windows... isn't terrible. I have everything I need. A Linux prompt, sublime text, Chrome...
this reminds me of the original Surface, the giant touchscreen table that could detect objects placed on it. now Surface is a tablet with a kickstand.
these are concept cars. the consumer product is still gonna be a plain, four-door sedan.
Apple never went for crazy ideas.
They did long research and went for relatively safe bets from their perspectives. Some may seem daring from the outside. But the choice is on the safest bet due to research.
You ever try to use a smartboard? The college where I work just threw out ALL of them because no one used them. They are mostly garbage: inherently difficult to use, a maintenance nightmare, no killer apps.
Everyone is so focused on Microsoft as a "consumer" facing company they're missing the point that they're creating devices that will eventually be everywhere. The Hub 2 is aimed at business, but in 10 years we will all have similar devices in our homes.
They are. The challenge MS faces, I suspect, is this underwhelming desire to get FUNCTIONING tech to market. Case in point: Surface Studio Pro. “Get it out, we’ll fix it later” doesn’t build brand confidence.
You act like most other companies don't. Apple does, Most Software Dev companies do, at this point most companies use their customer base as test bunnies for their new stuff. And I am not referring to Beta testers.
And at least Microsoft actually has public betas and listens to feedback. This was very clear in Windows 10 getting changes in the middle based on it. Apple, on the other hand... it’s more “you can test the betas but we don’t care about anything, maybe bugs, but that’s it”
Well sure, but this isn't exactly a consumer technology, right? Microsoft is doing great at the enterprise game, and it looks like they're doubling down on that strategy. You're not wrong, but it's not the same market as Apple.
I considered a windows laptop as a replacement, but while the hardware is great, it is the perception and direction of Windows 10 that were big factors in my decision. I hope Apple takes a focus on macOS this year.
You complain when Apple removes old ports and adds touchbars (me too!) but also praise outlandish concepts like this. Seems contradictory. Do you want desktop/laptop computing to innovate or stay the same??
I would hardly call inventing new ways to interact on a new device category and removing needed functions from an existing device the same. Nobody whined when iPads were created that it’s horrible they removed keyboard from a MacBook since it’s a new category.
Desktop computing is not a new category. It’s old & ossified. My take is that Apple cares too much about the Mac, not too little. They’d be better off spec bumping their machines rather than trying to push forward with touchbars and usbc. Marco often seems to agree, but not here.
Wtf are you talking about? When has Apple ever said or shown there’s no further investment? What knowledge do you possess on what is being worked on right now? Microsoft always created vapor like this. MS Courier anyone?
This is a reasonable argument for why touchscreens won't replace the keyboard/mouse on laptops and desktops. But it doesn't explain why they'd be bad as an *extra* input method, for quickly selecting or manipulating something that you primarily interact with via other inputs.
You can more quickly and intuitively select, scroll, zoom, etc. items on the screen by touching them than by using the mouse. Touch pad gestures solve some of those problems, but they still require you to move the mouse to select the correct context first.
No. If you're sitting down with a keyboard in front of you, a touch screen is not ergonomic, but a trackpad is. If you're standing up with no keyboard, then a touch screen makes more sense ergnomically.
You're making a theoretical argument against a practical reality.
Millions of Windows users (and, for that matter, millions of iPad Pro users!) use laptop-orientation touchscreens every day and love them.
TouchBar is a little different because it requires apps to be specifically written for it. I'd assume that a touchscreen Mac will just treat touches as ordinary mouse or touchpad gesture events so that no specific support is required from developers (except maybe for stylus, etc)
Having used PC laptops with touch screens, it’s actually really handy for occasional gestures. Doesn’t replace a good trackpad, but can augment one. Plus if they ever made it so you could flip the screen around to lay flat it would be amazing for digital art with an Apple Pencil
Also, in the case of what Microsoft is proposing, the Surface Hub replaces whiteboards, which also have the exact same ergonomic problems. It may be uncomfortable to continuously write or draw on a whiteboard for an extended period, but the form factor is still very popular.
If only that were true. I've owned many MacBooks and PCs over the years and the touch screen laptops make scrolling way, way better. It's a great experience.
But, feel free to stick to an old narrative. Remember the whole "no stylus" thing? Heh
I actually mean the Windows UX or environment, my feeling and semi-technical is that the actual OS is solid in both cases, and Windows is a bit more pro and extensible (in my case useful for architecture/design). The windows UX/UI is a disgrace still - see settings.
To be even more specific file management / settings / account management is an evil disaster on Windows. It is a neutered sadness in Apple, but that stuff is an outrageous wrong in Windows. Is everyone equally happy/sad now? :-)
At this time, OS X is a big mess too. Only its Unix underpinnings make it still bearable. Lots of software is crappy and the latest OSX is buggy and it’s gettingworse, while Windows is getting actually better...
I agree, and for me worst of all is the lack of integration in the supposedly seamless ecosystem. But the killer is the config and system mgt UI/UX for Windows. I simply cannot get over how awful the account mgt / file mgt / settings is given how much it all drives.
If Apple even remotely believed that, cheese grater Mac Pros and Mac Minis would regularly be released with upgraded CPUs/GPUs/RAM/SSDs etc. The trash can Mac Pro would never have existed. Clearly they think otherwise, Apple’s just not as fast with Macs as we wish they were
We are saying the same thing, phrased differently. But ultimately someone has to connect those pushes to users. If developers became interested in Microsoft Windows PCs coming from 3rd parties that emulate the Surface - great. But there is zero evidence of it happening so far
Very B2B, as you'd expect from MS, but impressive none the less. I like the way they're thinking about redefining the way we work with technology. If they keep at this, something will stick eventually. You don't succeed unless you try.
And they're also shipping significant UI and feature updates to standard PC Windows 10 every few months. At this point, I look forward to Windows 10 announcements more than OS X. Hell, even their rewrite of screenshot management/editing is more exciting than most OS X features
when @Apple has figured out, how to sell leather case and casual straps in addition to a similar product, they eventually will ask Johny Ive to chisel something out of an raw block #aluminium.
I still fear that the #modular#macpro will only have colored shells to chose from …
To be fair, it’s a matter of semantic. What Microsoft is doing is innovating with non traditional computer format, a category that could include iPads.
When Apple talk about the Mac they refer to the very specific traditionnal form factor.
I think you're great @marcoarment, but most or your arguments against Apple fail to recognize the enormous challenge of building, growing, and maintaining the most popular and profitable product the world has ever known.